Hurricane Losses June 6, 1940

[VtwinVince]

Is there a good resource for looking into RAF Hurricane losses for this day?

[AndyMa]

There were nine Hurricane losses on 6 June 1940 I believe.
L1911 501 Sqn
L2005 151 Sqn
P2885 111 Sqn
P2905 17 Sqn
P3360 17 Sqn
P3417 17 Sqn
P3472 17 Sqn
P3579 56 Sqn
P3666 6 OTU
There is a little doubt about the date of some of the 17 Sqn losses - possibly 7 June?
What exactly are you looking for?

[Adriano Baumgartner]

The Battle of France then and now do inform:
17 Squadron (P3472, P2905)
43 Squadron (L1931, L1847, L2116, N2585, L1726, L1737, L1608)
79 Squadron (one crash landed at Hawkinge..do not have its serial)
151 Squadron (P3529)
73 Squadron: (L1826)
601 Squadron (P3484, P3490)

What you looking for particularly...a claim by JG 3?

Adriano

[Adriano Baumgartner]

VINCE...MY MISTAKE...I passed you on the previous answer ALL losses for the 7th June!!!!
pg.436 up to pg.439!!! My mistake!!!

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by AndyMa

There were nine Hurricane losses on 6 June 1940 I believe.
L1911 501 Sqn
L2005 151 Sqn
P2885 111 Sqn
P2905 17 Sqn
P3360 17 Sqn
P3417 17 Sqn
P3472 17 Sqn
P3579 56 Sqn
P3666 6 OTU

That was an interesting list Andy
What are your sources for that?
Cornwell only managed to locate three, and one (151 Sq) without any ID. Simon Parry does exactly the
same!
Checking the RAF serial booklets by Halley, he says
L1911 501Sq probably left behind at St Helier on evacuation 20.6.40
L2005 151Sq Damaged by Bf 109s and abandoned at Godmersham, Kent 28.8.40
P2885 111Sq Abandoned 5.6.40 (Cornwell/Parry says 6.6.40)
P2905 17Sq lost 6.7.40 (printing error? Not in Parry's book)
P3360 17Sq missing 6.6.40 (checks)
P3417 501Sq shot down near Deal 28.9.40
P3472 17Sq missing 6.6.40 (not listed by Cornwell/Parry. Why??)
P3579 249Sq shot down by Bf 109 near Dover 10.1.41
P3666 6OTU bellylanded at Sutton Bridge 6.6.40 (not listed by Cornwell/Parry, but probably non-combat related)

Something must have shown up to make you change quite a bit....
Cheers
Stig

[AndyMa]

Oops, sorry folks, had a bit of a brain fart there, some I listed were not total losses but force-landings etc.
Try again:

P2885 111 Sqn: https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ls/r/C16471464
P2905 17 Sqn: https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ls/r/C14502472
P3360 17 Sqn: https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ls/r/C14502463
P3472 17 Sqn: https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ls/r/C14502476
P3666 6 OTU: https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ls/r/C16471466
There is a little doubt about the date of some of the 17 Sqn losses - possibly 7 June?

The others were force-landings etc, living to fight another day.
L1911 501 Sqn
L2005 151 Sqn
P3417 17 Sqn
P3579 56 Sqn

[Stig Jarlevik]

Andy
This seems to be a bigger mess than I thought
I failed to check the 7th by Parry and Cornwall.

Both P3472 and P2905 are listed on that date with references to the ORB.

Their losses also fits better the Luftwaffe claims.

Cheers
Stig

[AndyMa]

Stig,
Yes, I had already noted the problem with some of the 17 Sqn losses.
One of the difficulties is that there is no record of events for 17 Sqn for June 1940, just a summary of events for the period 1 May to 31 July 1940:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/D8408906
which does indeed quote 7 June 1940 for the losses of Emms and Whittaker - but no serials are given.
As you will be aware, these summaries could quite often be compiled some time after the events.
Inspection of the casualty files (non-digitized, so a visit to Kew required) might offer some more clues as to why they are listed on 6 June 1940.
The AM78 cards only serve to confuse the matter further:
P2905 is listed on the front as SOC May/40, and on the rear as FB O Missing 6.7.40 (which will be no doubt from where the information in the Air-Britain serials list was derived)
P3472 is listed on the front as SOC May/40, and on the rear as FB O Missing 6.6.40

Andy

[Stig Jarlevik]

Yes indeed Andy

I am aware that many factors could conspire to make even primary documents hazardous to rely on.

Possibly both Cornwell and Parry have weighted in the claims made by Luftwaffe into the
equation since if we don't, there is a high underclaiming by the Germans on the 6th and corresponding
overclaiming on the 7th.....

With regard to P2905 the date is clearly a case of digits changing place. Always a problem, but I am pretty
certain by now that 7.6.40 is correct.

Cheers
Stig

[AndyMa]

Stig,
You may well be correct, but I think you need to guard against "confirmation bias".
You have said a date written as 6.7.40 is "clearly a case" of digits changing places.
It could just as easily be a single digit error, ie writing 6.7.40 when you mean 6.6.40!
I would be really interested to see what is in the Casualty Files for these two men. Why do they both have the date as 6.6.40?
Andy