Johannes Wiese's Bf109 on July 5, 1943

[bavgan]

On July 5, 1943, Hptm. Johannes Wiese shot down 12 Il-2's. He was also hit and made a crash-landing on the same mission. Nevertheless, this became his most successful day of the war.

Does anybody have any details of the Bf 109 he was flying that day? Because the aircraft was crashed, it must be in the LW loss lists.

Kind regards,

Batur

[Leo Etgen]

Hello Batur

The JG 52 loss lists that I have seen (Fast/Perry) have the following losses for 5 July 1943:

I./JG 52

Bf 109G-6 W.Nr. 20030 I./JG 52 (80%)
Overturned on landing. Fl.Pl. Bessonowka (F)
Bf 109G-6 W.Nr. 20004 weiße 5 (100%) 1./JG 52
Maddalena, Ofw. Basilio MIA after Luftkampf with Pe-2.
WNr. reported as 2004. 10 km NNE of Tomarowka F
Bf 109G-6 W.Nr. 20055 2./JG 52 (40%)
Flak, unbekannt (F)
Bf 109G-6 W.Nr. 15577 schwarze 6 (100%) 2./JG 52
Baumgart, Uffz. Hans MIA after Luftkampf with 10 Il-2s. Belgorod area F
Bf 109G-6 W.Nr. 20031 gelbe 7 (100%) 3./JG 52
Hess, Uffz. Edgar MIA after Luftkampf. Belgorod F

III./JG 52

Bf 109G-6 W.Nr. 20062 weiße 9 (80%) 7./JG 52
Krupinski, Oblt. Walter (RK) Injured, overturning on landing. (Flak?) Ugrim/Belgorod F
Bf 109G-4 W.Nr. 19764 (100%) 8./JG 52
Luftkampf. Belgorod F
Bf 109G-4 W.Nr. 19709 (100%) 8./JG 52
Schumacher, Fw. Karl (DK) WIA in Luftkampf. Notlandung. NE of Belgorod F
Second time WNr. reported on same day!
Bf 109G-4 W.Nr. 19754 schwarze 8 (100%) 8./JG 52
Hauswirth, Fw. Wilhelm (DK) MIA due to Flak. Belgorod F
Bf 109G-4 W.Nr. 19534 schwarze 12 (100%) 8./JG 52
Lotzmann, Uffz. Manfred MIA after Luftkampf. Ugrim/Belgorod F
Bf 109G-4 W.Nr. 19709 schwarzes winkel-winkel (100%) 8./JG 52
Leschkowitz, Uffz. Martin KIA, cause unknown. Bauchlandung. Ugrim/Belgorod F
Bf 109G-4 W.Nr. 19300 gelbe 3, BH+XD (100%) 9./JG 52
Knehs, Fw. Walter MIA after Luftkampf. Ugrim/Belgorod F
Bf 109G-4 W.Nr. 175819 (60%) 9./JG 52
Landing accident. Fl.Pl. Saporoshje-Ost (H)

As you can see there is no loss that is specifically identified as his. It is my information that he was serving as Staffelkapitän of 2./JG 52 at the time. Could it be that the third entry represents this incident?

Horrido!

Leo

[Pawel Burchard]

Originally Posted by bavgan

Because the aircraft was crashed, it must be in the LW loss lists.

No, it is not true

p.

[bavgan]

Thank you Leo. It may be W.Nr. 20030 as well. If the a/c had been hit, Weise might overturned in landing.

Thanks again.
Batur

[Jim P.]

But, as Pawel alluded to, don't assume the loss reports are complete. Many aircraft < 10% damaged are missing, unless pilot or someone in the crew were wounded or injured, but even that is no guarantee - there are numerous aircrew mentioned in Gen.Qu. losses with no corresponding airplane. This where the NLVs from the WASt come in handy. Even then, well....(that's where the real fun starts!!)

[Leo Etgen]

Hi guys

Good points about not all losses being included in the various lists. For example, Obermaier has that Leutnant Peter Düttmann (150 victories, RK) of II./JG 52 was involved in incidents on 11 July 1943 (ditched in sea following aerial combat), 9 August 1943 (force-landed in no man's land and evaded) and 23 August 1943 (belly-landed his fighter and it exploded). None of these can be found in Fast's loss list.

Horrido!

Leo

[Stig Jarlevik]

Leo

If you check Bernd Barbas II./JG 52 book, you will find all three of Düttman's crashes in there....

Cheers
Stig

[bavgan]

Stig,

Are there any photos of Bf 109G-4's taken in summer 1943 given in the book? If yes, are the werk numbers given in the captions? I am looking for the camouflage patterns of the G-4's with the WNr. 195XX.

Thanks.

batur

[Jim P.]

Of the 3 Duettmann losses, only 1 appears in the GQM losses, that for 9-Aug. The other two (along with several incidents) are from his logbook.