Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 14th July 2015, 16:40
kaki3152 kaki3152 is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,767
kaki3152 is an unknown quantity at this point
Luftwaffe Unit responsible for two P-51Ds-April 4,1945

On April 4,1945, the 354th FS, 355 FG lost two P-51Ds (both pilots KIA) in combat with 2-4 Fw-190Ds over Ludwiglust, Germany. The combat report in the MACR is fascinating to read, since it's obvious the FW-190Ds were flown by very capable LW pilots. One Fw-190D was claimed by the 354th FS.

Does anyone know which Luftwaffe unit this could have been? For a while, I thought it might JGr-10, but the dates don't match.

This was also the date that Heinz Baer claimed a P-51 Mustang. but there is no mention of a me-262 in this combat.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 15th July 2015, 01:38
Broncazonk's Avatar
Broncazonk Broncazonk is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 454
Broncazonk is on a distinguished road
Re: Luftwaffe Unit responsible for two P-51Ds-April 4,1945

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaki3152 View Post
The combat report in the MACR is fascinating to read, since it's obvious the FW-190Ds were flown by very capable LW pilots.
Well? How long do you intend to keep us in suspense??

Post the report!! Or give us the best parts. Something!

Bronc
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 15th July 2015, 04:48
pdame141 pdame141 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mooresville, NC
Posts: 51
pdame141 is on a distinguished road
Re: Luftwaffe Unit responsible for two P-51Ds-April 4,1945

Looks like one is MACR 14149 - 1st Lt. Thomas F. Truel, Jr. - flying No. 2 in lead element with Captain Alvin S. White. Lt. Truel fell behind his flight leader when they bounced the four FW-190s - ended up with one E/A on his tail - tried a split s at 500 ft and observed by Capt. White to crash and burn.

The second is MACR 13957 - 1st Lt. Robert A. Goth - flying no. 3 in Capt. White's flight. He and his wingman 2d Lt. Kaplan attacked the lead element of the four "long nosed" FW-190s, which turned into them. All eight planes ended up in a Luftberry. Just as Goth got into firing position, the last two of the E/A broke up into the clouds. One E/A then came back down in a steep diving spiral and was shot up by Kaplan. The second E/A repeated this attack and shot down Lt. Goth.

Last edited by pdame141; 15th July 2015 at 04:51. Reason: Typo
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 15th July 2015, 05:08
pdame141 pdame141 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mooresville, NC
Posts: 51
pdame141 is on a distinguished road
Re: Luftwaffe Unit responsible for two P-51Ds-April 4,1945

It could be that the "long nosed" FW-190s were actually Ta-152s of the Stabsschwarm of JG 301. I found an online reference indicating that Stab./JG 301 was the first unit to get Ta-152s and were tasked with providing top cover for Jagdwaffe airfields in their area of ops.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 15th July 2015, 05:08
kaki3152 kaki3152 is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,767
kaki3152 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Luftwaffe Unit responsible for two P-51Ds-April 4,1945

Here tis...


On April 4th, 1945 I was flying Falcon Blue 4 on a fighter sweep north of the Hanover-Madgeburg area. Between 8:15 and 8:45, we bounced three flights of bogies and consequently became separated from the group. At approximately 9:30, we let down through the overcast, the base of which was at 1200 ft. and broke out 5 miles east of Ludwiglust . At this time Lt. Goth , who was flying Falcon Blue 3 . called in a flight of four bogies just west of Ludwiglust and circling the town. We made an orbit around the town and they continued to circle. By the time they had arrived at a position east of the town, our flight leader, Capt. Al White identified them as long nose Fw-190s and ordered the flight to drop tanks and attack. The E/A at this time were in a string formation. Capt. White and his wingman, Lt. Truel, fell in behind the last two E/A and the first E/A element turned into them. Lt. Goth and myself were approximately 500 yards behind our lead element , tucked onto the tails of the last E/As and the eight ships went into a Luftberry just below the base of the overcast. As soon as Lt. Goth was in position to fire, the last two E/A broke off and shot up into the overcast. We continued to circle below the overcast, I being approximately 100 yards behind Lt. Goth. Shortly thereafter, one E/A came down through the overcast in a steep diving spiral between Lt. Goth and myself and fired a short burst at him. I , in turn, fired at the E/A and observed several strikes in his tail section, after which he broke off and shot back up into the overcast. A second later, the second E/A attempted the same tactics and apparently succeeded, for although I could not see any strikes on Lt. Goth’s ship, nor was he smoking, he rolled gently out of his turn and struck the ground in a 20 degree dive, exploding. I followed this E/A up into the overcast but was unable to keep him in sight.
Just before following this E/A into the overcast, I observed another E/A to strike the ground and explode.

Albert A. Kaplan --2nd L:t. A/C Pilot
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 15th July 2015, 18:39
drgondog's Avatar
drgondog drgondog is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 892
drgondog is on a distinguished road
Re: Luftwaffe Unit responsible for two P-51Ds-April 4,1945

There is a strong possibility that the encounter was at Salzwedel instead of Ludwiglust.

Lieutenant Truell was lost while trying to evade he 190D by Split S.

There is a strong possibility that the LW unit was JG 301
__________________
" The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 16th July 2015, 05:01
kaki3152 kaki3152 is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,767
kaki3152 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Luftwaffe Unit responsible for two P-51Ds-April 4,1945

Well, here's one clue

From "JG-301/302" (Reschke)on April 4,1945 Fw-190D-9- 8./JG-301 Uffz Helmut Helix KIA air combat. Location noted as " westlich Cochstedt"

No mention of any JG-301 claims for P-51 Mustangs
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 18th July 2015, 16:25
Black6 Black6 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 161
Black6 is on a distinguished road
Re: Luftwaffe Unit responsible for two P-51Ds-April 4,1945

I wonder if Helis got a P-51 ?

Helmut Helis is buried in the Quedlinburg War Cemetery, Grave 60.

Nachname: Helis
Vorname: Helmut
Dienstgrad: Unteroffizier
Geburtsdatum: 18 Dec 1922
Geburtsort: Rydultau
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 04 Apr 1945
Todes-/Vermisstenort: 1 km westl. Cochstedt
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 18th July 2015, 16:30
Black6 Black6 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 161
Black6 is on a distinguished road
Re: Luftwaffe Unit responsible for two P-51Ds-April 4,1945

I see Helis had a previous victory, a B-24 on 26 Nov 1944.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 6th July 2022, 19:46
kaki3152 kaki3152 is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,767
kaki3152 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Luftwaffe Unit responsible for two P-51Ds-April 4,1945

Resurrecting an old thread, are there any further thoughts on the unit flying these Fw190Ds? I had some previous correspondence on the possibility that this unit was JGr-10? Found a citation that Stab./ and I./JG1 in early April 1945 was based at Ludwiglust-Techentin A/F, which was the Airfield that the 355FG was supposedly visiting. [https://forgottenairfields.com/airfi...orst-335.html]
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A code of Luftwaffe unit Fairlop Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 5 4th December 2005 22:08
Which Luftwaffe unit bombed of the city of Steinkjer, Norway? runeha Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 3 9th May 2005 09:30
List of Luftwaffe unit war diaries in archives? Kari Lumppio Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 1 20th April 2005 02:05
Luftwaffe bombing German Cities: April 45 Pinback Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 15th April 2005 12:08
Which unit sank HMS Diamond and Wryneck on April 27, 1941?? Ivo de Jong Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 2 24th January 2005 20:33


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 20:23.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net