Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 24th September 2016, 07:10
Milos Gazdic Milos Gazdic is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 149
Milos Gazdic is on a distinguished road
Fw 190 A-8s of 380xxx block... and "Black 10+" among them...

Hello,

While building my Hasegawa box no. JX110 Fw 190 A-8 (reprint of Trimaster family) I was thinking which markings to use for the build up... and leaning towards "Black 10+" W.Nr 380 352 as found on Darmstadt in derelict state back in 1946 and visible on two photos in P. Rodeike's Fw 190 bible on page 322 (images 589-590) spotting nothing more than core fuselage (missing: horizontal stabilizers, wings, canopy cowling covers, rudder...)

In order to do some discover whats happening with the reminder of the parts not visible in the photo and to decide on how to paint the aircraft I have to do some investigation and that's where I would love to invite you guys to jump in with the suggestions, knowledge, references...

(Please note that about 70% of my Fw 190 related library and references are back in Serbia and I am working with what I have on hands - so anything you have on hand - will be welcome at least as pointer to the similar machines)


Things visible on the two photos dealing with "Black 10 +" in Rodeike's book show us:
- Black 10 applied in standard manner/font;
- B4 800mm Black outline only crosses;
- H2a Black with white outline Hakenkreuz;
- Absence of stencils on the fuselage including the first aid kit on starboard side just aft of the cross;
- Presence of "Starke Mann" crest on the port side forward just under the windshield
- Yellow tail tip
- Yellow RV band of JG11 (obviously connecting it to the emblem carried on the fuselage)
- unusual position of WNr in lower position and large block stencil digits tthat are not perfectly aligned just above the horizontal stabilizer connection points;

Regarding camouflage visible fuselage parts show:
- very light/bright lower surfaces colour (RLM76) that goes very high up the fuselae without any mottling
- something that seems like single colour camo applied to the upper surfaces going from windshield (nose is basically missing in the photo) all the way to the vertical stabilzer leading edge and extending in the form of the light overspray all over it.
- armoured ring on the nose seem to be in RLM 76 and first ring on cowling too with only small light overpaint on top of it in what seems to be same colour as fuselage.

Decals for this machine are present in:
- Eduard's Fw 190 A-8 boxes for both 1/48 and 1/72 and show the machine in late war colours with blown canopy - which for me is totally wrong when it comes to camouflage but they might have got it when it come to the canopy
- Cutting Edge Fw 190 A decal sheet CED48(72)105 - where it's shown with only RLM 75 on fuselage's upper surfaces and old type canopy. Cutting Edge goes further to show: ETC501 rack attached & applied spiral to the spinner which I cannot confirm based on the absence in the photos I have. References they state for this decal are: Original Photos.

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Fw-190A/JG1.II.html states that this machine belonged to Rüdiger von Kirchmayr during his service in Stab I./JG11, something I cannot confirm. Anyone has any further info on this?

Further aircraft was mentioned in regard of acceptance of some of JG 11's machines into JG 301's service and possible application of the reversed JG 301's RV band in relation to that... in the post by Steve Sheflin here on TOCH:
"R. Bueschel’s beautiful photo set of JG 11’s A-8 10+ Bk, WNr. 380352, also carries the “Starke Mann“ crest. While not absolute proof of the thesis, it is yet another piece of evidence for the idea that aircraft so marked originally came from JG 11 and were expeditiously remarked by I./JG 301; adding a red band over the existing yellow band."
I am not 100% sure if the machine went to serve to JG 301 but the fuselage band is clearly single colour.

In "German Aircraft Industry and Production, 1933-1945" authors Ferenc A. Vajda, Peter Dancey try to confuse me and put on the page 157 the batch 380XXX as A-9 type which I think is not really correct, although I believe at least some, if not all, of the aircraft in the batch had blown canopies.

My old friend Andrew Arthy goes and publishes short but well researched article on his Bookie's Fw 190 sitehttp://fw190.hobbyvista.com/380block.htm dealing with whole 380XXX block of Fw 190s, listing them as A-8s based on loss reports and other data and among few aircraft that he tackles there is Black 10 description with some corrections to Peter Rodeike's comments under the photos in his book. Among other aircraft discussed and shown there are:
- "Yellow 17 +" W.Nr 380 374
- "White 2 +" W.Nr 380 400
- and comments of an aircraft with unknown W.Nr. which could belong to the same batch as shown in some other secondary sources

To the photos featured on this page I would like to add another one http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream of apparently same W.Nr 380 374 as shown on Arthy's page (more in the discussion point 8 bellow)

Interesting to note is:
1) Both "Yellow 17 +" & "White 2 +" feature blown canopy (as shown in Eduard's instructions for "Black 10 +" too) and I wonder if it could be assumed that whole batch of the aircraft was produced with the same type of canopy of would you believe that whatever was available
was attached to the aircraft (something that even Jerry Crandall suggests in few discussions);

2) "Yellow 17 +" and "Black 10+" seem to feature standard metal propeller VDM 9‑12067A (laying next to "Black 10 +" on one of the photos)

3) All of the aircraft spot no mottling on the fuselage and have their camouflage colours reserved to upper parts of the fuselage only.

4) Hakenkreuz on W.Nr 380 374 & W.Nr 380 352 seem to be of same type, outlined in white while W.Nr 300 400 aka W.Nr 380 400 seem to have a simplified one of only black colour.
Fuselage crosses seem to be of same B4 type and size on all of them.

5) W.Nrs applied to the same position with same font type.

6) Stencils on "Yellow 17 +" and "Black 10+" seems to be missing or not visible but "White 2 +" clearly spots all the stencils.

7) Camouflage on the fuselage is very low contrast in all the photos or what I could also believe is a single colour (which is hard to believe but anything is possible in Luftwaffe in 1944 and 1945 - isn't it?)
Keeping with this point I'd like to mention that Thierry Dekker has done nice profile of the "300400" aka 380 400: The only contrast that I could assign to the two camouflage colours on the fuselage (checked with the picker in Photoshop) are: a) contrast on the leading edge of the vertical stabilizer compared to the area on the spine just in front of it - where difference is about 20% of black measured with the 5pt size & 11pt size average picker in photoshop - leading me to believe that the machine received possibly RLM 74 mottling on the stabilizer) and b) on the nose machine guns cover with the diagonal line where I can spot around 8-10% of Black difference making me doubt presence of 2nd colour and being possible to assign the difference to the shadow that would be cast from the bulges on the MG cover just as the one that was obvious under the opened canopy's rear and that confused Thierry Dekker into believing there is demarcation line between two colours there because of light being in strong backlight & of quite humid / wet day April day as it seems it was when the photo was taken
My measurements will hopefully be visible here: & (hope it's not an issue to post parts of the photos from the above mentioned site in order to point to the things?)

8) If the Flickr photo of Yellow 17 really shows Fw 190 A-8 W.Nr. 380 374 "Gelbe 17", 3./JG 301 as shown on Bookie's page then it clearly shows some of the features of it's upper wing camo which makes things even more interesting:
a) small panel in the trailing edge of the wingroot seems to be in Natural Metal;
b) leading edge camouflage colour (usually RLM 74 in standard pattern) seems to be the same tone as the fuselage spine colour (there is difference of 3-5% in colors on the fuselage and wings but that can be assigned to the sky reflection in the wings (while the fuselage is still in the semi shadow); Could this color both on the spine and and wings be RLM 75?
c) Fuselge sides & the rear / trailing edge camouflage (usually RLM 75 in standard camo pattern) is same tone as the fuselage sides (Could it be RLM 76?);
d) presence of the dark wing tips in the camo pattern as seen in some of the late war Fw 190s
e) B6 White outline crosses (910mm) on the upper surfaces of the wing
f) Very IMPORTANT to notice is that RV band seems to be dark front & brighter rear (almost white) ring colour in Flickr image compared to the photo available on Bookie's site showing opposite: bright front & dark rear band. Fact that the Flickr image show so bright rear RV band color - might be a pointer that it's not JG 301 aircraft and maybe not the same a/c at all? Photo is marked to be takenin Plsen in Cz Rep. and Bookie's one in Germany (probably few months before). Could same aircraft finish in Czech Republic on the end of the war (which again is not so far from German border)?
Pan vs Ortho film:http://twostriptechnicolor.tumblr.co...e/131900982776

From the above points it seems that machines from 380 3XX block are more lookalikes than the 380 400 machine (Hakenkreuz, Stencils...)

Now... I would be very happy to hear all the Fw 190 and Luftwaffe Experten here point me to all the silly mistakes & assumptions I have made. I hope I am not sounding too crazy with my idea that the whole spine is one single colour (or with very small over-sprays of 2nd colour?)

Same topic was started on Hyperscale's forum too.

Please comment!

Best,
Milos aka Misko, now in Shanghai

PS Wouldn't it be amazing if someone would sort out all the Short Nosed Fw 190s per batches and determine the traits (camo/markings) just like gentleman from JaPo & Eagle Editions did for their amazing Dora books? I know it would demand 5-6 books - but I would be more than happy to pay for them as much as Dora books were costing!

PS Also please note that I have got back into aviation again after few years break and since I could not join with my old password I created new one... Hope it's not a big issue that a rookie on the forum posts this demanding topic? :)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 24th September 2016, 18:01
ChristianK ChristianK is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 510
ChristianK is on a distinguished road
Re: Fw 190 A-8s of 380xxx block... and "Black 10+" among them...

Hi Milos,
and jeez, that's a lot of thought put into a single aircraft (and no, I will not discuss every single point of this^^).

First off: It was, is and will remain forever impossible to give any definitive statements about the colors in black-and-white photographs. You must always remember this simple fact before you get too carried away with speculations..

Then: Werknummer 380374 in Pilsen is almost definitely finished in a classical RLM74/75 scheme (or RLM 75 with a darker green). As 380352 was produced before this aircraft, it very likely also wore a 74/75 scheme..

Also: The colors of 380352, when photographed in Darmstadt, are much too faded to say anything of value about patterns, shades etc..

If I were you, I would put a 74/75 scheme on my model and live with the possible inaccuracies..

Cheers,
Christian

Last edited by ChristianK; 24th September 2016 at 19:42.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 24th September 2016, 19:39
Milos Gazdic Milos Gazdic is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 149
Milos Gazdic is on a distinguished road
Re: Fw 190 A-8s of 380xxx block... and "Black 10+" among them...

Hey Christian

Thanks for the reply.

Just like you say - I also believe that the approach of least resistance is as you say: standard camo of 74/75/76...
though I would love to hear what people say when it comes to whole batch, especially upper wing camo as described on the photo of Yellow 17 shown on the Flickr post...

I decided to paint my A-8 model into "Red 3 / Kornjark" as flown by Feldwebel Konrad "Pitt" Bauer so I have much more time to wait & discuss the things regarding the batch 380xxx
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 23rd March 2017, 10:33
Milos Gazdic Milos Gazdic is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 149
Milos Gazdic is on a distinguished road
Re: Fw 190 A-8s of 380xxx block... and "Black 10+" among them...

Over on Bookie's Focke-Wulf 190 and Ta 152 page (by Andrew Arthy) there is caption of a photo mentioning Dennis Peschier as a person who is trying to match all Fw 190 Production runs to the camouflage patterns (something similar to JaPo Dora project I suppose).
Hence I am wondering if anyone has Dennis' contact of any kind or even better if he is member on the board too?
TIA
Milos
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 23rd March 2017, 10:54
Andrew Arthy Andrew Arthy is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: North Queensland, Australia
Posts: 526
Andrew Arthy is on a distinguished road
Re: Fw 190 A-8s of 380xxx block... and "Black 10+" among them...

Hi Milos,

Dennis is a member of the board (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/member.php?u=212), but I'm not sure if he is still working on his project of matching FW 190 WNr. blocks to schemes. Last time we talked about it (2012), he'd done some really good work on the FW 190 A-8 WNr. 680 ... block. Hopefully he can update us on his project.

I have been thinking about revising that 380 ... WNr. block article, but have never gotten around to it.

PS - thanks for reviving these old FW 190 threads. I have lots of comments to make, but sadly no time!

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 23rd March 2017, 11:20
Milos Gazdic Milos Gazdic is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 149
Milos Gazdic is on a distinguished road
Re: Fw 190 A-8s of 380xxx block... and "Black 10+" among them...

Hello bro!
Thanks for the heads up on Dennis membership.
Do you by any chance know what is his -handle- here?
Wish they could slow that damn thing called time - so we could do more things in life. Don't you to?
Best regards from Shanghai!
Miško
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 23rd March 2017, 14:39
RT RT is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 3,145
RT is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Fw 190 A-8s of 380xxx block... and "Black 10+" among them...

Seems Milos, has more time, in China

Rémi
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 23rd March 2017, 16:57
Milos Gazdic Milos Gazdic is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 149
Milos Gazdic is on a distinguished road
Re: Fw 190 A-8s of 380xxx block... and "Black 10+" among them...

Sitting home with flu stuck to the bed - hence the avalanche of messages. Hope you don't mind me posting too much Rémi. I have honestly asked in one of the topics about it - and I would gladly stop if people mind it. I am new-come-backer to aviation world and I can imagine how it might look from the side.
Best,
Milos
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
batch, camouflage, fw190, late war

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
18th Nov. 1944: A "Black Day" for JG 2 Nordpol54 Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 29th December 2011 21:14
Critical Past: Fw 190 F-8 "Black Chevron" and "Yellow 8", May 1945 Marc-André Haldimann Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 26th September 2010 17:58
The new image of Fw 190 D-9, "Black 4+l", W.Nr. 400271 hikki Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 2 28th October 2009 21:54


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:12.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net