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Old 1st April 2011, 20:19
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940

Hello,

As stated in a previous post, our working group is revising our info on 103 SQ Battle losses during 1939-40 for the EOE Project. We've now matched photos to losses for ten of the unit Battle losses during the mid-May, 1940 period, and are solid on specific plane crash locations as well. However, we are seeking photos and any further information for the following 103 SQ incidents during that period.

May 10, 1940: "2 Battles. Reported slightly damaged in bombing by Do17s of II./KG2 4.45 a.m. No crew casualties. Aircraft repairable." Do any photos exist from this incident, or SN and/or a/c letter information for these two planes?

May 10, 1940: Battle K9372 badly crashed in Luxembourg. We need confirmation, with source cited, of a/c letter for this badly wrecked plane. This cannot be confirmed from wreckage photos, so will probably have to come from some contemporary unit record or logbook. Need first names of crewmen.

May 10, 1940: Battle K9270, crashed in Luxembourg with crew killed. We think we have a photo of this crash, but need other views of it to confirm our info. Also need to confirm a source that has reported this as PMoO. Need first names of crewmen.

May 10, 1940: Battle K9264, badly crashed in Luxembourg. We need confirmation, with source cited, for reported a/c code of PMoL, and the same info on first names.

May 10, 1940: "Battle K9408: Returned to base (Bétheniville, France) badly damaged with wings, fuselage, and port fuel tank riddled by ground fire during low-level bombing attack on enemy column east of Dippach 3.00 p.m. Flight Lieutenant J. A. Ingram and crew unhurt. Aircraft damaged but repairable." Do not have photos of this a/c after damage; need a/c code and crew info as above.

May 12, 1940: "Battle L5512. Badly damaged by flak during attack on enemy columns between Bouillon and Sedan 5.15 p.m. Crashed attempting forced-landing at ‘Fond-Wazelle’, near Haraucourt, France, during return flight. Flying Officer G. B. (Barry?) Morgan-Dean and AC1 H. B. Sewell killed. Aircraft a write-off." Need a/c code and crew info as above.

May 12, 1940: "Battle P2193. Shot down by flak during attack on enemy columns between Bouillon and Sedan 5.15 p.m. Crashed and burned out at Curfoz, north of Bouillon. Pilot Officer E. E. Morton and AC1 A. S. Ross killed. Aircraft PM*C or G a write-off." One of the most photographed wrecks of a Battle down in France, but can't clearly determine a/c letter from photos. Are there any contemporary records that can confirm this either way? Need info on crew first names.

May 14, 1940: "Battle L5516. Suffered a direct hit from intense flak during attack on bridge north-west of Remilly-Aillicourt and exploded over ‘Le Chemin du Liry’ 3.40 p.m. Pilot Officer V. A. Cunningham and AC1 L. J. Johnson killed. Aircraft PM*E or F a write-off." One photo we have shows the a/c letter and SN, but we can't determine whether this is an "E" or "F." Are there any other photos or contemporary records that would answer this question? Need crew names as above.

May 16, 1940: "Battle L5234. Crashed on take-off on evacuation of airfield (Bétheniville) 7.00 a.m. No crew casualties. Aircraft PM*B abandoned.
Another unserviceable aircraft K9404 was also abandoned on withdrawal of the squadron to Rhèges."

We have good photos of the first a/c, but no photos or a/c letter for K9404. Also, can any source provide the crew that was flying L5234 when it crashed on T.O.?

Will deal with other losses to 103 SQ during the WC in a subsequent posting.

Thanx in advance for any help here.
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  #2  
Old 1st April 2011, 21:05
Dave Richardson Dave Richardson is offline
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Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940

W R Chorleys Bomber Command Losses Vol 1 (1939-40) will give you the surnames and initials of the crews and if you have a look at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website you should be able to pick up the first names for all of the casualties, you need to know the surnames and initials:
http://www.cwgc.org/debt_of_honour.asp?menuid=14

Here's what it had for a couple of the crews:

K9270:
Poole, Christopher John Stafford
Hutchinson Olaf Arthur

K9264
DRABBLE, KENNETH JOHN
SMITH, THOMAS DAW
LAMBLE, PHILLIP JAMES

Dave

Last edited by Dave Richardson; 1st April 2011 at 21:36. Reason: typo
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Old 1st April 2011, 22:59
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940

Dave,

We've used Chorley in our compilation of our comprehensive British loss list, among many other sources. We also know about the CWGC website, but just haven't yet had the time to research all the first names for fatalities listed there. It's the names of people not killed that are going to be the biggest challenge for adding all the first names.

Thanks for the comments and looking these up.

Regards,
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Old 7th April 2011, 00:50
Martin Gleeson Martin Gleeson is offline
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Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940

Larry,
.
Comments on crew positions and use of the CWGC website for first names as per my post on the earlier 103 Sqn. Phoney War thread.
.
May 10, 2 Battles damaged by Do 17s.
The 103 Sqn. ORB - admittedly reconstructed after the campaign - states "Betheniville aerodrome bombed at dawn without damage to personnel or equipment".
.
May 10, K9372.
The crew were:
F/O Maurice Clunes Wells 37535 Pilot
(Both the ORB and the London Gazette website indicate his rank as above. He was promoted to F/Lt. w.e.f. 18 June 1940. The latter source also confirms his first names).
Sgt. H. F. Bullock 565115 Observer
LAC T. H. Bowen 521480 WOp/AG
(There was another T. H. Bowen in the RAF but definitely not this man. See my recent 'DFC query' thread on the RAF Commands forum ).
.
May 10, K9264.
P/O Kenneth John Drabble 40610 Pilot
(First names also confirmed on the LG website).
Sgt. Thomas Daw Smith 580500 Observer
LAC Phillip James Lamble 550831 WOp/AG
(The above adds to what Dave Richardson has already supplied).
.
A photo of this aircraft in flight with the code 'PM-L' appears on page 80 of THE BATTLE FILE.
.
May 10, K9270
Sgt. Charles Henry Lowne 580167 Pilot POW, not KIA.
(First names from the London Gazette, he was commissioned postwar).
Sgt. Christopher John Stafford Poole 580416 Observer
LAC Olaf Arthur Hutchinson 524532 WOp/AG
(Crew position details for last two adds to what Dave Richardson has supplied).
.
May 10, K9408.
F/Lt. John Anthony Ingram 39187 Pilot
(First names from the LG website).
No other information.
.
May 12, L5512.
F/O George Barry Morgan-Dean 40131 Pilot
(First names also confirmed on the LG website).
AC1 Horace Basil Sewell 531362 WOp/AG
.
I do not believe L5512 was 'PM-L', see K9264 above. L5513 was the much-photographed second 'PM-L'.
.
May 12, P2193.
P/O Edgar Elliot Morton 40635 Pilot.
(First names confirmed in the LG, and Errol Martyn's FOR YOUR TOMORROW series).
AC1 Alexander Strachan Ross 61376 WOp/AG
.
May 14, L5516.
P/O Vernon Allan Cunningham 36212 Pilot
(Although I could not find him in the London Gazette, his first names are confirmed in Errol Martyn's FOR YOUR TOMORROW series).
AC1 Joseph Johnson 617968 WOp/AG
(No initial 'L').
.
Nothing new for L5234 or K9404.
.
Hope this helps,
.
Martin.
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Old 7th April 2011, 02:49
Revi16 Revi16 is offline
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Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940

103 Sqdn Battles,

Last edited by Revi16; 25th July 2011 at 03:43.
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Old 7th April 2011, 02:53
Revi16 Revi16 is offline
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Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940

1

Last edited by Revi16; 25th July 2011 at 03:43.
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Old 7th April 2011, 02:56
Revi16 Revi16 is offline
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Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940

2

Last edited by Revi16; 25th July 2011 at 03:43.
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Old 7th April 2011, 03:02
Revi16 Revi16 is offline
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Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940

3

Last edited by Revi16; 25th July 2011 at 03:43.
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Old 7th April 2011, 08:32
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940

Dave, Martin and Revi16,

Thanks for all the time and effort you put in on your answers. At the EOE Working Group, we're still debating whether it is worth it to try and locate first names and crew positions for all British crewmen involved in a/c loss & damage incidents from 01.09.39 through 31.12.40. Our parallel Luftwaffe DB for the period, which includes many thousands of entries, does include all known first names and crew positions. I'd guess that more than 95% of these now have that information recorded. So I'm inclined to try and do the same for the comprehensive British DB we're working on. But Peter Cornwell feels that the British records just don't well lend themselves to doing this on a comprehensive basis. If there are readers of this board who are willing to help make this happen, we'll shoot for it, but it will take a lot of digging by a lot of volunteers to make this work. Remember, we're trying to do ALL British losses, RAF FC, BC, Coastal Command and RN. Training losses are not included. Obviously full names are known for all FC participants in the BoB, but there were at least hundreds more assigned to BC, CC and RN that would have to be researched very tediously. As the researchers who most care about this, should we do this or not? Can we get enough help to make this happen? I'm willing to post the questions, if you're willing to help us do this.

A special note for Revi16, I'm well familiar with all of these a/c, except for possibly the third one in the last post. I can't read the code clearly on this a/c and the background doesn't look familiar. It may have a PH SQ code (12 SQ) rather than PM (103 SQ). Can anyone help confirm the correct code and identity for this photo, perhaps with other views showing the code more clearly? Although I haven't tried to comprehensively put a number on them, I think that we've assembled a collection of contemporary photos of Battle FL or crashes of at least 50%, maybe considerably more, of all those lost during the WC. For example, of the dozen lost in Luxembourg during the first two days of the WC, it appears that we have photos of at least 10 of them at the crash site, including several that were little more than wreckage.

Thanks to all for the continuing help and support.

Regards,
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  #10  
Old 7th April 2011, 11:28
paulmcmillan paulmcmillan is online now
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Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940

Looks like a 12 Sqn PH Code to me..
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