Losses German Bight 18.12.1939

[MW Giles]

Marius

You need to read Holmes' book, but a partial answer to your question is the route taken by the formation, it crossed the North Sea roughly on latitude 55 deg N and at 55N 08E it turned roughly south ending up W of Nordholz before turning west towards Wilhelmshaven. Off Wilhelmshaven it turned North (effectively doing a large U turn) and once clear of Wangerooge 37 Sqn went WSW along the chain of islands, 149 and 9 carried on roughly NW until the reached a point N of Heligoland where they too turned roughly SW for home.

Therefore a fair amount of time spent loitering off the NW coast of Germany. Still does not account for the bad time reporting but partially explains the situation

Still only one RAF attack

Regards

Martin

[Marius]

The route to Wilhelmshaven is well described in C.Shores book. Off Wilhelmshaven it seems to be authors interpretation which has a very weak basis. It is clear some aircraft of 37 Sqd felt near Borkum at appr. 14.40-14.45 hours. But that`s all.
It does not explain the second formation of bombers and German claims after 14.40-15.06 between Wangerooge and NW Borkum.

J.Prien wrote in his books something about the 148 Sqd & 38 Sqd`s participating in the attack on Wilhelmshaven. I hope he will comment it.

Regards,

[Chris Goss]

Marius- i am afraid it is clear. Some authors are mistaken. Contemporary RAF records confirm just one attack

[Marius]

Chris, no problem. I am looking for an explanation of some things. As I understand the following German (confirmed) victories are pure science fiction:

I./ZG 76 Fw. Groening 14.40 Langeoog
I./ZG 76 Olt. Gollob 14.45 Langeoog
I./ZG 76 Ofw. Fleischmann 14.45 Spiekeroog
JGr.101 Olt. Kaldrack 14.50 Helgoland
JGr.101 Olt. Robitzsch 14.50 Helgoland
II./JG 77 Staffelabschuß 14.52 Wangerooge
II./JG 77 Olt. Henz 14.55 Wangerooge
I./ZG 76 Uffz. Kalinowski 15.00 Borkum
I./ZG 76 Lt. Graeff 15.00 Borkum
I./ZG 76 Olt. Gresens 15.00 Borkum
I./ZG 76 Olt. Uellenbeck 15.00 Ameland
I./ZG 76 Olt. Uellenbeck 15.05 Ameland
II./JG 77 Lt. Brockmann 15.06 Borkum

A lot of stuff... The propaganda machine worked hard on the big victory... Or maybe not?

Regards,

[MW Giles]

There is nothing inconsistent in these later losses, they are following the 37 Sqn formation down the length of the Frisians and heading for home, though only one of them made it. Another group of fighters followed 9 and 149 uo towards Heligoland, though these lost contact sooner than the ones after the 37 Sqn formation

The problems in air combat, especially involving single seaters, is recording times and knowing exactly where you are when you made your claim. It all gets a bit frenetic and when you land thirty minutes later mistakes are made, plus I am sure there are typos in the write ups and a certain amount of discussion between pilots as to get a claim verified you need corroboration, especially over the sea. One says we were about 20km N of Langeooge when the e/a went down at 07:02, where as the other says they were 30km NW of Spiekeroog at 07:04 when it happened

The problem seems to be that some of the claim times as per the Tony Woods listing are inconsistent with the position of the aircraft at that time, this is not unusual. I have seen other times quoted in other places. It all adds to the fun

I probably cannot help you more

Regards

Martin

[Andrei Demjanko]

Hi all

What is certain, is that there were indeed two formations approaching the area. Do not discount those three Wellingtons of 38 Sqn on a sweep. It seems that both formations were detected (38 Sqn approaching from the west), but, for sure, only one of them was intercepted. Fighters were scrambled to intercept this second formation, while it turned for home without ever reaching vicinity of Borkum from the west. Those newly scrambled fighters run into the first formation of Wellingtons and engaged it, apparently under impression that this was the second formation they were after on its way back to base. So they reported the strength of this 'second' formation roughly as equal to that of the first.

Regarding claims.

Originally Posted by Marius

...looking at the German victory list 37 Sqd flew surely nearby Borkum at the end of the whole "Heligoland formation", right? This was at appr. 14.45 hours (see claims of Lt. Lent at Borkum 14.40 & 14.45 hours).
I am wondering what Wellingtons were attacked at 14.45-14.55 hours near Wangerooge, Spiekeroog or Langeoog ? There are several claims as well as other at 15.00 hours achieved by 2./ZG 76 25 km WNW Borkum

Marius,

While the claim of Lt Lent at 14.42 hrs listed five km north of Borkum, the claims of Lt Uellenbeck at 15.00 hrs and 15.05 hrs listed 50km north [sic!] of Ameland, ie well out to sea, and its obvious that German pilots were pursuing retreating Wellingtons of 9, 37, 149 Sqns all the way from Heligoland Bight as far as a range of their aircraft permited.

Most probable cause of overclaiming is that there were several German fighter units involved. Let's look at Tony Wood claim lists. Both major units participating - II./JG 77 and I./ZG 76, each claimed fifteen Wellingtons ( two claims of I./ZG 76 and four claims of II./JG 77 were rejected), while other German units involved claimed ten further victories (two rejected). It's clear in the light of the knowledge we have today, that both II./JG 77 and I./ZG 76 have claimed credit for all actual RAF losses suffered. We also could sort these claims along the following lines - 13 confirmed for Bf 110's and 19 confirmed for Bf 109's. I think, the picture is clear. Why all of these claims were confirmed? I presume, that this was because the Germans were under the firm impression they engaged two separate formations.

[RodM]

Hi Marius,

I think it is important to you understand that, unlike Luftwaffe records, the records of Bomber Command, being a "home-based" formation, survived the war relatively intact. While there is a lot of minutiae that has not been preserved, all of the essential records have been available to the public since they were released in 1972. These include the individual squadron "war diaries", the Bomber Group "war diaries", and the Bomber Command "War Diary". These records, combined with casualty data and aircraft production and history data, make it clear that there was no "ghost" formation as you have proposed.

I can give a reverse analogy from the other end of the war: between November 1944 and May 1945, Bomber Command crews claimed a total of 77 jet-/rocket-propelled aircraft destroyed in air combat at night, along with a further 9 probably destroyed and 9 damaged. On the face of it so many crews over such a long period couldn't all be mistaken so surely there must have been a significant number of Me262s and Me163s shot down at night, right? Wrong, surviving records do not support even one jet-/rocket-propelled aircraft being shot down at night by a heavy bomber crew, and Bomber Command Headquarters understood this at the time. Not one of the 95 claims was confirmed...

On another note that will interest you, I will post an index list of Luftgaukommando XI crash reports for 18 December 1939, as found in the US-produced index of crash reports at NARA in the US. I should state that there appears to be duplication in the list, so caveat emptor...

Cheers

Rod

[RodM]

following is a list of Luftgaukommando XI crash reports for 18 December 1939,as indexed at NARA.

The list shows the time of the crash, the aircraft type that crashed, the location of the crash, and the microfilm frame number of the report:

1440 Vickers Wellington Between Langeroog and Spiekeroog 101566
1440 Vickers Wellington 10 km west-north-west of Borkum 101566
1440 Vickers Wellington Near Borkum 101582
1440 Vickers Wellington Near Borkum 101568
1445 Vickers Wellington North-west of Spiekeroog 101564
1445 Vickers Wellington North-west of Spiekeroog 101565
1445 Vickers Wellington North-west of Borkum 101560
1445 Vickers Wellington 25 km west-north-west of Borkum 101557
1445 Vickers Wellington Near Borkum 101587
1450 Vickers Wellington 30 km south-west of Helgoland 101559
1450 Vickers Wellington 20 km south-west of Helgoland 101558
1450 Vickers Wellington Map grid 6535 101579
1450 Vickers Wellington Near Borkum 101584
1455 Vickers Wellington Near Borkum 101583
1500 Vickers Wellington 25 km west-north-west of Borkum 101554
1500 50 km north of Ameland 101563
1500 Vickers Wellington 50 km north of Ameland 101562
1500 Vickers Wellington 25 km west-north-west of Borkum 101561
1500 Vickers Wellington 25 km west-north-west of Borkum 101555
1506 Vickers Wellington Map grid 6445 101569
1542 Vickers Wellington Map grid 7475 101571
1939 Vickers Wellington Map grid 7579 101573



As previously mentioned, this is the data as it was transcribed by the Americans. To make sense of it and to weed out errors and duplicated entries, one would have to order copies of each page (as indicated by the microfilm frame number) from NARA.

Cheers

Rod

[Marius]

Hello,
I agree with the two victories of Ullenbeck. It is theoretically possible he attacked aircraft from the "Heligoland formation" 9/149 Sqd. But I think it was the second "ghost" formation which he traced so long over the sea.

The Luftgaukommando crash report is very interesting. But it starts with the victory of Fw. Groening I./ZG 76. The rest corresponds with Tony Woods list. The first part of the victories (JG 77 & JG 26) is not mentioned or - what I do believe - just getting lost.(?)

There is no problem with the German victories` times & places or pilots making mistakes. But there would be too many mistakes and false interpretations.
Above this we have a formation of 22 hostile aircraft observed from the mainland (not reported by pilots!) flying from Borkum to Wangerooge and back again along the Frisian islands. Even if the observers made an error with the direction (instead of East-West West-East), they could have not count the aircraft of the Heligoland formation flying back. They consisted in the area of Borkum of appr. 10 aircraft still (not 22). At that time many Wellingtons were shot down already.
On the other side the whole victory list of Luftgaukommando XI agrees with the ghost formation, which - as our British friends say - was not existent.

My feeling is telling me our British friends have concealed something. By the way I would understand it - in the time of war and propaganda.

Regards,

[Andrei Demjanko]

Originally Posted by Marius

Above this we have a formation of 22 hostile aircraft observed from the mainland (not reported by pilots!) flying from Borkum to Wangerooge and back again along the Frisian islands.

These aircraft were not reported by pilots most probably because German pilots themselves were flying them

The second formation was real (three aircraft of 38 Sqn), its interception was imaginary.

Could we presume, that when 38 Sqn was detected approaching from the west, some Bf 110's of I./ZG 76, which were already not scrambled against 9,37, 149, took off to intercept. Let's look at the most probable route of these Bf 110's - from Jever to the Borkum flying almost straight on westward course. On reaching Borkum they did not find any hostile aircraft (38 Sqn by this time turned back while still off Dutch coast). What would be then the most probable course of action for these pilots? Right! Most promising to intercept British aircraft would be flying eastward along the coast from Borkum to Wangerooge in the hope to catch that second formation (which they presumed was flying on to Heligoland Bight) While doing so these Bf 110's were spotted by observers on the coast and were mistaken for Wellingtons. Finally, these Bf 110's intercepted 9, 37, 149 as the latter was already under attack by other fighters, and also engaged them, chasing them back and under impression that this was the formation which they were after (which was, of course, not)

Yes, these thoughts are speculative to some degree, but this version explains all the 'misteries'