RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled

[Graham Boak]

It doesn't matter how good the bar story is: 1+1 does not equal 3 and aircraft paints were specialist products applied when authorised under controlled (and inspected) conditions. There were some pretty poor paints used in WW2: I could mention the RAF's Special Night RDM2, or the Luftwaffe's night distemper, but these were all authorised issues for use according to orders. Aircraft were not painted with tractor paint, sports car paint, or naval wooden deck stain, just on the whim of junior officers or otherwise-unemployed airmen.

[harrison987]

Sure...and the Germans were supposed to have 3 square meal per day while fighting in Stalingrad...and that never happened.

"Textbook" is one thing...real field conditions is another. I guarantee you that if the German government was having issues supplying their troops with food and supplies, I HIGHLY doubt they were making "RLM PAINT"
a priority - the crews would have used whatever paint is on hand (and yes John Deere Paint was used from captured factories). They would not have waited around for that "all important supply of RLM spec summer aircraft paint"...when they had Russian paint on hand - this is a known fact.

I have seen NUMEROUS German types of paint on many wrecks I have been involved with...and I can tell you 100% that REGARDLESS of what is drawn up in "official paperwork", field conditions were quite different. Most of the later-war aircraft paint peeled only after a few months of being applied - as documented in numerous photographs. This was due to low quality and sub-standard paint.

This idea that "all paint used was specifically "aircraft quality" type is nonsense.

In addition...I know of one aircraft wreck that was painte in NINE different shades of paint:

76 (2 shades), 74, 75, 66 (yes, external paint), 81, 74, 80, and 82.

Where is the textbook on that?

Mike

[Cpt_Farrel]

To get the full picture you can't just study the documents and official orders, but it's equally impossible to use the findings on wrecks only. Even if you have found hundreds of wrecks it's still a much too small percentage to speak in general terms. Just because the green on that Fw190 matched John Deere Green doesn't mean it was and it certainly doesn't mean that it was "the green" used by the Luftwaffe in the east as there must have been several.

Also, it's as far as I know not certain were these aircraft were repainted, they may just as well have been painted in Germany or at a depot far to the rear were use of unauthorized paint would have been unacceptable. I. and III./JG3 for example deployed with their aircraft painted up in a very special scheme that was done in Germany.

/Anders

[Pilot]

harrison987- do you have info where and on what relics were present any of paints you mentioned?

[Oberst]

I was thinking.. Green is a secondary color that is created by mixing two primary colors--yellow and blue. If the yellow pigments faded, that would leave a blue hue.
The blue would may be darker, may be lighter.., depending on what other hues are mixed in. Hard to say.

[Pilot]

Oberst- green is in most cases based on chromium oxide green pigment then you have other options like black and yellow mix, black and ochre mix and as you say, blue and yellow. If you see any US Pacific airplanes you can note that dark blue can much fade out. As well there is cans found out, there is remained documents as well many relics, I am sure that in deep research can give full answer on colors. Did anybody try to do spectral analysis of the preserved paint samples?

[edNorth]

Them old pigments are not the same as used today. A fact few remember, I think. Look it up. Them Luftwaffe (exteriour) paints were Epoxy based, that crack and crase like hell and adhere poorely. Not really bad quality as stated earlier in this thread. High quality stuff used the wrong way (in my opinion). Epoxy is likely heavier than Oil based paints (as used on US and British planes) that were more "flexible" but faded real quick. The pigments faded but not carrier base (Epoxy) on Luftwaffe aircraft, that cracked and crased, and collected dirt real quick. I likely never have seen a photo of a "super-clean" Ju 88, except before assembly and flight (and perhaps a prototype)!

I have several samples of original Luftwaffe, RAF and USAAF paints on some pieces of alumin and have used these for my drawings.

[Oberst]

Hello edNorth,

Can you point me to the source of Luftwaffe planes painted with Epoxy & the pigment differences? When you talk about cracking and crazing, the only time I see that is IF the surface isn't properly prepped, or ACRYLIC is used with non ACRYLIC paints/primers.

[Pilot]

Originally Posted by edNorth

Them old pigments are not the same as used today. A fact few remember, I think. Look it up. Them Luftwaffe (exteriour) paints were Epoxy based, that crack and crase like hell and adhere poorely. Not really bad quality as stated earlier in this thread. High quality stuff used the wrong way (in my opinion). Epoxy is likely heavier than Oil based paints (as used on US and British planes) that were more "flexible" but faded real quick. The pigments faded but not carrier base (Epoxy) on Luftwaffe aircraft, that cracked and crased, and collected dirt real quick. I likely never have seen a photo of a "super-clean" Ju 88, except before assembly and flight (and perhaps a prototype)!

I have several samples of original Luftwaffe, RAF and USAAF paints on some pieces of alumin and have used these for my drawings.

I have interview few times one craftsman here who was foreman for paint shop and they use German paints in aircrafts manufacture. They used enamel based and nitro based paints. Most of parts were ditch into bath of paint during production. Only external camouflage was spray painted with nitro paints. Each paint had its own procedure and mix ratio with thinners. They have pot and they measure time of paint leak from pot (with hole at bottom). Testing of color was made on metal sheet samples before it goes into production.

Epoxy was discovered in 1930 but I am not sure that paints are used that fast (thank you for info). My knowledge goes that first use is reinforcing of fabric on control tabs but there was used phenolic resin. The same resin was used in Yugoslav pre war industry and first product ever completely made as composite was US trainer Timm N2T.

Thank you for info and sorry for a bit off topic.

[edNorth]

Oberst: I think my reference to Epoxy (Resin) versus nitro-enamel paint is found in (shomewere) in K Merrick & J Kiroff "Luftwaffe Camouflage & Markings 1933 - 1945" (Classic Colours).
- Certainly the sample of RLM 71 (from Ju 88 D-5) I have in my posession physically feels as Epoxy (thick and brittle!) but has touches of RLM 02 or similar as overspray, altogeather some three or four layers on one Stkz. letter overpainted with unit letter and that also overpainted with (possibly "wellenmuster") or downtoning for overwater flight (not RLM 72/73, only gray overspray simulating naval colours I think).
- But then there is lots of colour discussion in Merrick/Kiroff book. A recommended reading for all.
- Pigment references is from memory: that Old Humbrol paints were using pigments from an factory that was sold to China afterwards, and someone (Museum) was able get correct pigments from there and make enough for repaint of a restored aircraft.
Having ex- 40+ years of (Luftwaffe & other) modelling under my belt knowlegdge is there, but finding the exact referance again is sometimes harder. I too read that todays pigments were designed after the war and they fade slower (are artificial pigments for giving the colour to the paints)