looking for info on HE-111 losses over Holland, 10th may 1940

[rob van den nieuwendijk]

Forgot some details -

There was a Nachtrag in the NVM -
Uffz Zitzmann "abgegeben an Lazarett Krankenhaus Hertogenbosch Holland, Feldpost nr 27142" Later the entry from Krankenhaus till Feldpostnr was changed in "Dienststelle Feldpostnr 18985.

Interesting to note that Klenk had also been shot down over Poland and had returned from Polish POW on 3 Oct 39.

Regards
Rob

[Marius]

The Heinkel of Klenk was not shot down (1.9.1939 over Poland). Observer Hölscher meant it was maybe (!!) a splinter from Polish AA. The damage itself was not registered. Fact is that many He 111`s had engine problems then (serious difficulties with Daimler Benz DB 601).

Marius

[Peter Cornwell]

Originally Posted by Jaap Woortman

I don't think that the 5J+JN has made a crashlanding near Alblasserdam. In the information itself it is said that Uffz H.Zitzmann has been treated at the Missiehouse of the Paters van Nuland. Nuland is about 120 km from Alblasserdam. The correct crashplace is Rosmalen. Rosmalen is close to Nuland.

Jaap Woortman
Secretary Dutch Study Group Airwar 1939-1945

Thank you Jaap. While I am happy to accept that the 5J+JN may have come down at Rosmalen and not Alblasserdam, can I ask is there any evidence beyond the proximity of the hospital at Nuland to support this claim ?

The crash site of the aircraft is shown as Alblasserdam in the Weisz manuscript and also Bulletin Air War No.247 (T114) produced by your own Study Group. This source also shows a He111 down at Rosmalen on that day but it remained unidentified (T128A).

Any clarification appreciated.

[Jaap Woortman]

Originally Posted by Peter Cornwell

The crash site of the aircraft is shown as Alblasserdam in the Weisz manuscript and also Bulletin Air War No.247 (T114) produced by your own Study Group. This source also shows a He111 down at Rosmalen on that day but it remained unidentified (T128A).

Any clarification appreciated.

The inventarisation project of all aircraft lost over the Netherlands during WWII of the Study Group Airwar 1939-1945, published every month in our Bulletin Air War, is an ongoing project for 6 years now. Every time new evidence is found the list is updated. Therfore I am very happy with this discussion. A picture of the He 5J+JN is published in Onderdrukking en Verzet. Nederland in oorlogstijd. Amsterdam. Deel 1, page 167. See appendix. Photo caption in translation:"German airplane at May 10th shotdown near Den Bosch" Photo R.C. Photo agency "The South". I will check if the book of Hermens about Rosmalen during WWII also has information about this subject.
This information has also been send to the coordinator of our inventarisation project.

Jaap

[Hans Nauta]

Dear Peter,

I doubt wether 5J+ST was detailed to Bergen as this airfield was attacked by 7./KG4.

Regards,
Hans Nauta

[Peter Cornwell]

Jaap, Rob, Hans,

Thanks for your input. It is clear that Rosmalen and not Alblasserdam is the correct location & makes excellent sense of all the information. I have amended the entry as follows:

5./KG4 Heinkel He111P. Shot down by Fokker G1 of 3-II-1 (1e Lt Kuipers & Sgt Venema) and belly-landed at Rosmalen, north of 's-Hertogenbosch, 4.15 a.m. Uffz H. Zitzmann captured badly wounded, treated at Missiehaus Paters van Nuland. Uffz G. Klenk, Uffz W. Wiebke, and Gefr R. Schlegel captured unhurt. Aircraft 5J+JN a write-off.

Jaap, I understand very well indeed that research is an iterative process so keep up the good work - all of you.

[kiwi123]

Maybe some people can add to this ? I've tried to find the corresponding fokker G.I. number for each 111 loss.

Stab KG4 Heinkel He111P (2909). Shot down by Fokker G1 of 3-II-1 (1e Lt Noomen & Korp de Vries) during sortie to Rotterdam and belly-landed in St Annapolder between Rockanje and Hellevoetsluis, south of Zwartedijk 4.15 a.m. Oberfw E-R. Frotscher killed. Oberst M. Fiebig (Geschwaderkommodore), Oberlt K. Born, Oberfw O. Hlubek, and Oberfw O. Blank captured unhurt. Aircraft 5J+DA a write-off.
Shot down by 312


Stab KG4 Heinkel He111P. Returned badly damaged by flak and Fokker G1 of 3-II-1 (1e Lt. A. van Oorschot and Sgt. W. P. Wesly) over Waalhaven 4.10 a.m. Oberlt Andersch unhurt. Fw P-K. Schiel badly wounded, admitted to hospital in Delmenhorst. Fw H. L. Romatowsky and Uffz H. Wiegand slightly wounded. Aircraft damaged but repairable.
Shot at by 315?


2./KG4 Heinkel He111P (4570). Shot down by Fokker G1 of 3-II-1 south of Dordrecht and crashlanded between Goudswaard and Piershil 4.15 a.m. Gefr H. Pälchen and Gefr K. Klemm badly wounded. Aircraft destroyed by crew.
Shot down by 302/312/328?


5./KG4 Heinkel He111P-2 (3556). Believed shot down by Fokker G1 of 3-II-1 over Waalhaven. Oberlt H. Roth, Uffz H. Heinig, and Obergefr E. Stephan captured slightly wounded. Aircraft a write-off.
Shot down by 302/312/328?


5./KG4 Heinkel He111P. Shot down during attack on Waalhaven by Fokker G1 of 3-II-1 (Sgt Souffree & Sgt de Man) and belly-landed 1 km south of Zevenbergschehoek 7.00 a.m. Oberfw H. Ganss killed. Oberlt R. Ganzert, Oberfw E. Tischer, and Gefr H. Dertinger captured unhurt. Aircraft 5J+DN a write-off.
Shot down by 328

5./KG4 Heinkel He111P. Shot down by Fokker G1 of 3-II-1 (1e Lt Kuipers & Sgt Venema) and crashlanded at Alblasserdam, near Waalhaven 4.15 a.m. Uffz H. Zitzmann captured badly wounded, treated at Missiehaus Paters van Nuland. Uffz G. Klenk, Uffz W. Wiebke, and Gefr R. Schlegel captured unhurt. Aircraft 5J+JN a write-off.
Shot down by 302

[kiwi123]

I am looking for the info for this piece, which is not final by the way:

[mathieu]

Hei kiwi 123,

Kuipers and Venema did not fly the 302, but the 319. It was one of the 2 G.1's that landed on Waalhaven, the other one being the 312 with P. Noomen as pilot.

Best regards,

Mathieu

www.fokker-g1.nl

[kiwi123]

I've collated the numbers fromhttp://www.bhummel.dds.nl/gif/3JaVAWH.html

302 Om 3.51 gestart, schoot twee He-111s neer en beschadigde een derde; met beschadigde motor op Waalhaven geland, kon niet meer starten. Piloot J.P.Kuipers voegde zich met schutter J.R.Venema bij de opstelling van het 51e Pel.Lu.Mitr.. Vlak ten noorden van Waalhaven. Venema sneuvelt hier. Kuipers ontsnapt 's nachts in een roeiboot naar de noordelijke Maasoever..