Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 21st June 2007, 02:25
Sylvester Stadler's Avatar
Sylvester Stadler Sylvester Stadler is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 77
Sylvester Stadler is on a distinguished road
Operation Market Garden

In his history of the 9th SS Panzer Division, Hohenstaufen, Herbert Fürbringer mentions that during Operation Market Garden, German fighters of the Ist Jagddivision intercepted the transports and gliders bringing reinforcements to the American airborn divisions and to the British 1st Airborn Division at Arnhem and shot down numerous transports (C-47s) and gliders.

Going through the claims lists of the German fighter units during the period of 17-27 September 1944, I note claims for DC-3s but none for any type of glider. Since a glider is not powered by an engine and that claims for aircraft include single-engine, twin-engine and multi-engine types, is it correct to assume that no credit was given for the destruction of a glider when destroyed in the air?

On the History Channel, I once saw gun-camera film from a German fighter which was shooting at a glider which had the black and white invasion stripes. I could not see whether the glider was hit by the gunfire but it proves that such aircraft were indeed targets of German fighters.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 21st June 2007, 08:14
Jon Jon is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: England
Posts: 374
Jon
Re: Operation Market Garden

In Bloody Biscay by Chris Goss he describes an incident on page 106 of a KG40 JU88 Engaging a Halifax towing a Horsa glider, The Halifax managed to escape into cloud, but at the expense of the Glider pilot casting off into the Bay of Biscay.
Maybe Chris can give us details of his research into the incident, was the JU88 crew awarded as a kill?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 21st June 2007, 15:48
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,867
Adriano Baumgartner is on a distinguished road
Re: Operation Market Garden

Hello Sylvester Stadler ( your name seems quite familiar...did you fight in WW2 ? )
Well, I have been looking at Tony Wood´s claims for Allied aircraft and do not remember seeing Allied Gliders being credited to German fighter pilots. Maybe some of the Historians on the Forum can confirm for us. Neither do I remember any Allied fighter pilot being given credit for any German Glider...perhaps on the Eastern Front, on Russia, but I do not remember from my literature to have read about that.
Yes, there are several well known photos of a Ju 88 attacking a Horsa glider which was towed by a B-24 or a Halifax ( see Mister Kit publications for the Ju 88 ). Since the Glider crashlanded in the water, I do not know if it was credited to any of the German pilots of KG 40 involved...Had to check out.
Cheers my friend
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 21st June 2007, 16:07
Dave B's Avatar
Dave B Dave B is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5
Dave B is on a distinguished road
Re: Operation Market Garden

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriano Baumgartner View Post
Hello Sylvester Stadler ( your name seems quite familiar...did you fight in WW2 ? )
You're probably thinking of this bloke....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvester_Stadler

Dave
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 21st June 2007, 16:24
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,867
Adriano Baumgartner is on a distinguished road
Re: Operation Market Garden

Yes, I knew I had already saw this name elsewhere...it is this former OC of Hohenstauffen. Thanks Dave, you were very quick to answer! Certainly they are not the same people however!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 21st June 2007, 17:27
Steve49 Steve49 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 203
Steve49 is on a distinguished road
Re: Operation Market Garden

Looking through Martin Middlebrooks 'Arnhem 1944' it seems that re-supply aircraft were only engaged by fighters on the 21st September. No gliders being involved on this occasion, but a total of fourteen Stirlings and thirteen Dakotas fell victim to either flak or fighters (he believes that about half of the aircraft were shotdown by fighters).

Tony Woods claims lists have a total of 20 claims for 'DC.3's' by JG26 on 21st September.

It doesn't seem that any transport aircraft towing gliders were engaged by fighters during the initial landings on 17th September.

Regards,

Steve
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 22nd June 2007, 22:03
SES's Avatar
SES SES is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 05 ON LT 8
Posts: 709
SES
Re: Operation Market Garden

Hi,
There is an interesting twist to 17 Sep fighter operations. The GefStd (Ops Bunker) of 3 JD, who was responsible for fighter employment, had a skeleton manning only on this day. The staff was busy conducting a prearranged evacuation. I think this goes a long way to explain the low number of claims on this particular date. Please see: http://www.gyges.dk/Gefechtsstand%20bunker%203%20JD.htm
bregds
SES
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 22nd June 2007, 23:13
Roundway Roundway is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 99
Roundway is on a distinguished road
Re: Operation Market Garden

Jon/Adriano

You are thinking of Halifax DG396 of 295 Squadron. The Horsa it was towing (HS 102) did indeed end in the water, being claimed by Oberleutnant Dieter Meister (V/KG 40). For photos taken during the attack, plus written account visit: http://www.raf38group.org/dg396b.htm

Brian
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
RAF losses 5./6. March 1945 JanZ Allied and Soviet Air Forces 13 25th February 2012 12:40
Airpower summary Pilot Post-WW2 Military and Naval Aviation 0 23rd February 2007 15:11
101st Airborne - Market Garden - photos edwest Allied and Soviet Air Forces 0 21st April 2006 04:08
Losses of B-17's in RCM role paul peters Allied and Soviet Air Forces 4 15th February 2006 20:57
Why did 3 JD relocate;compromise of Market Garden? SES Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 21st January 2005 17:26


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 22:35.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net