Erich Hartmann - several questions

[kennethklee]

Hello-

I'm curious about several aspects of Erich Hartmann's career as a fighter pilot:

1. I've read several unverified accounts that the Russians offered a sizable reward (10,000-20,000 rubles) for Hartmann's capture or death. Does this scenario have any basis in truth?

2. Hartmann's primary biography to date, The Blond Knight of Germany, mentions Carl Junger as one of Hartmann's JG-52 comrades and as an "ace in his own right", IIRC. Was Junger an ace (5 or more victories)? Was Junger a real JG-52 pilot or is his name a pseudonym?

Thanks for reading and any information.

Ken

[mars]

The question to your first question is No

[Johannes]

Hi

I think that almost certainly Junger didn't exist. In fact I would not believe almost anything from your book.
Contrary to belief Hartmann was not popular, in fact there was almost a mutiny within his Staffel over him. He only made high altitude attacks for one thing, I suspect he made fraudulent claims, he was a poor officer.
Forget your books victory list as well........it is well out, also apart from your books hundreds of little mistake and contradictions, there are a lot of non-truths!

Regards

Johannes

[mars]

He was also not popular after he took command of the I/JG 53

[mathieu]

Hi,

Is there any particular reason why he was not that popular? And about his claims, how many can be confirmed with the Russian records that became available after the collapse of the Soviet union?

Regards,

Mathieu.

[Johannes]

Hi

Not all un-popular pilots were fraudsters Friedrich Geisshardt was unpopular because he was arrogant, his claims were good.
Kurt Welter's claims were outragous, and he was hated for it!
With Hartmann, he was known to look after number one, as stated before he took no part in ground attack misions, but if I was to guess I would say that other pilots whether right or wrong suspected false claims.
Regarding false claims his actual claimed (frequency) do suggest fraud, though so do Marseilles and he was honest! Let's say his claims if i had to guess honest or not, I would guess dis-honest. Forget the name but a member has stated 80 actually crashed, if that's 80 from 352 I don't know, in fact the last twenty's dates are not even 100% so how can they be judged?

Hartmann had a said end, after Barkhorn's death he became paronoid, would attend Luftwaffe meetings, or like to leave his house so much, also took to drinking too much and the smoking had aged him, he fell at home and hit his head.
So who actually shot doen the most aircraft is likely to be Rall or Barkhorn, both whose claims look honest, Lipfert is known to have been honest, and list claims suggest so, Nowotny and Rudorffer were frauds, as were Weissenberger and Erhler, Batz and Schuck are thought to be, as is Graf, don't really know about Hafner and Kittel. Schuck's total anyway is based on this statement that Goring had told him that an additional 25 of his claims had just been confirmed! I can find only 176 for him, but it should be 181! and Phillip is a little short of 200! Hackl about 150 but honest, Krupinski honest!

Regards

Johannes

[DiegoZampini]

[Matheu

Originally Posted by mathieu

Hi,
Is there any particular reason why he was not that popular? And about his claims, how many can be confirmed with the Russian records that became available after the collapse of the Soviet union?

According to Russian historian Dmitriy Khazanov, who matched his claims with Soviet loss records, only 80 out of Hartmann's 352 victories can be confirmed.
Khazanov mention several ocasions when he (and his buddies) claimed a lot of victories, but the VVS suffered few or not losses at all. Such cases were:
* 29.05.1944: During the Soviet air strike against the Romanian airbase of Novela, Erich Hartmann claimed to shot down three "LaGG-7s" (La-5s). In fact, the Soviet 5 VA did suffer losses - three Il-2, but the 302 IAD, which provided escort to the attack and was equipped with La-5FN, did not suffer losses at all.
* 4.06.1944: That day, during the fourth sortie of the day, Hartmann and his wingman Birkner were jumped by two Aircobras, with Hartmann claiming to turn the wits and shooting down both P-39s. Jazanov determined that they were the Aircobras flown by Mayor B. B. Gakhaet and Leytenant Nikolay L. Trofimov of the famous 16 GIAP, and both Aircobras returned home without a single scrach!!
* 4.07.1944: Hartmann claimed three Il-2s north of Yassy, which were attacking German positions of artillery. The formation attacked by Hartmann were 12 Il-2s of the 2 ShAK led by Leytenant Frolov, but they lost only one Shturmovik, which made a force belly-landing on Soviet held territory.
* 24.08.1944: That was the day when Hartmann claimed his victories Nos.299 to 303 over the Soviet beachhead of Sandomierz across the Vistula river - all four were P-39s. The only unit equipped with Aircobras providing cover to Sandomierz were the ones of the elite 9 GIAD led by Polkovnik Aleksandr Pokryshkin - and did not suffer a single loss in air combat that day! There is a P-39 pilot missing after becaming separated of his comrades, which could have been downed by Hartmann. But at most Hartmann could score only one victory that day, never four.

Other example is the combat when he was shot down on 20 August 1943: according his account in his autobiography written by Trevor Constable, he shot down two Il-2s when was hit by flak, belly-landed and captured by a short period of time (later he evaded).
If fact Khazanov could determine, that according to the Soviet records, what Hartmann attacked was a group of Shturmoviks of the 232 ShAP. One of the Il-2 pilots, Leytenat Pavel Evdokimov, saw how a "Messer" jumped his buddy V. Ermakov, and shot at close range a 20-mm burst against the Bf.109, which performed a belly-landing - indeed this was Hartmann's Bf.109G-6. No Il-2 was lost by 232 ShAP that day, even when two were damaged. Once again, Hartmann "kills" were overclaims (even when in this case seem that both were in good faith). And he was not downed by flak, but by Shturmovik pilot Pavel Evdokimov.
Khazanov conceeds that indeed Hartmann was a dangerous opponent, crediting him with at least two victories against Soviet aces: on 16.10.1943 he shot down the La-5 of Starshiy Leytenant Ivan Nikitovich Sytov (30 victories, 5 GIAP), and on 1.03.1945 the Yak-9 of Kapitan Sergey Ivanovich Lazarev (728 IAP, 256 IAD), but not before Lazarev shot down his the Bf.109G-14 of Hartmann's wingman G. Kapito (Lazarev's victory No.26)
I hope you found this information usefull.
Kind regards.
Diego

[Pilot]

Originally Posted by DiegoZampini

[Matheu

Other example is the combat when he was shot down on 20 August 1943: according his account in his autobiography written by Trevor Constable, he shot down two Il-2s when was hit by flak, belly-landed and captured by a short period of time (later he evaded).
If fact Khazanov could determine, that according to the Soviet records, what Hartmann attacked was a group of Shturmoviks of the 232 ShAP. One of the Il-2 pilots, Leytenat Pavel Evdokimov, saw how a "Messer" jumped his buddy V. Ermakov, and shot at close range a 20-mm burst against the Bf.109, which performed a belly-landing - indeed this was Hartmann's Bf.109G-6. No Il-2 was lost by 232 ShAP that day, even when two were damaged. Once again, Hartmann "kills" were overclaims (even when in this case seem that both were in good faith). And he was not downed by flak, but by Shturmovik pilot Pavel Evdokimov.

Diego

This is very interesting- any additional info about the Leytenat Pavel Evdokimov as well Hartmann machine which was shot down?

P.S. sorry for re start old topic, hope this is not problem

[kaki3152]

Good stuff Johannes. BTW, What do you think about Heinz Baer's victories? I find his claims to be somewhat exagerated, damaged aircraft were counted as victories.
Kurt Buhlingen seems fairly accurate for JG-2, though his identifications were off at times. Heinz Bartels was wayyyy off. Priller and Glunz are accurate,witha few exceptions.

[Rob Romero]

Johannes and Kaki; how were you able to determine the accuracy of these claimants; especially as I believe most of the pilots you cited (or at least most of their claims) were made agains the Soviets; have you been able to compare them to Soviet records?


Thanks