Erich Hartmann - several questions

[Rob Romero]

Diego,

Yes I think we would all be interested in your chart on which Experten were shot down and by whom?

Thanks!

[DiegoZampini]

Originally Posted by Nokose

Mars,
Yes, that was a "shameful" event if what happen to the refugees happen as described in the book.

Yes, if it happened, indeed is shamefull - teenagers and little girls raped and murdered by Soviet soldiers. BUT I WANT ALSO TO REMIND YOU, THAT ALSO ACCORDING TO HARTMANN HIMSELF, THOSE MONSTERS WERE IMMEDIATELY EXECUTED THE NEXT DAY, WHEN A RUSSIAN GENERAL ARRIVED TO THE AREA.
I INVESTIGATED THE MATTER, AND MY CONCLUSION IS THAT RAPING WAS NOT NEITHER TOLERATED NOR ENCOURAGED BY SOVIET COMMANDERS - WHEN DISCOVERED, THIS KIND OF CRIME WAS PUNISHED WITH FAST TRIALS AND IMMEDIATE EXECUTION.

Diego,
I have another source for the 20Aug43 incident with Hartmann being shot down from "Над Огненной Дугой" by Vitaliy Gorbach. Chapter 5.3 "On 20 August Erich Hartmann will be shot down by the fire of a Shturmovik from the composition of the 8 VA and only good luck will allow the future Luftwaffe star to avoid waiting to the end of the war in a prisoner of war camp". He doesn't say what regiment, pilot or gunner.

The work of Gorbach is interesting. Thanks for quoting it!! In any case, it did not discard that Leytenant Pavel Evdokimov had downed Hartamnn's using his Il-2 Shturmovik like a fighter that day.
BTW, Nokose: I read in several sources that Hartmann was shot down or had to belly land 14 times. But so far I could identify only 3 of them:
5.11.1942 - downed by Il-2 rear gunner of 7 GShAP.
25.05.1943 - was apparently shot down by a LaGG-3 in a "taran" while flying Bf.109G-4 W.Nr. 14997.
20.08.1943 - probably (I have no doubt) by Il-2 pilot Pavel Evdokimov.
Nokose: Did you (or anyone) know when ocurred the remaining 11 times that he crash-landed?
Kind regards to all
Diego

[DiegoZampini]

Dear Rob:

Originally Posted by Rob Romero

Diego,
Yes I think we would all be interested in your chart on which Experten were shot down and by whom?
Thanks!

Always a pleisure. What follows are some of the cases when Il-2 Shturmovik pilots shot down German aircraft, including fighters (and experten):
-24.08.1942 Grigoriy S. Danilov (807 ShAP) Bf.109F-4/R1 W.Nr.13388 Obltn. Erwin Stracnicky Staffelkapitan 2./JG 3 Experte with 35 victories
-25.08.1942 Grigoriy S. Danilov (807 ShAP) Ju.88A-4 W.Nr.5540 Uffz. Karl Stoll + 3 crewmembers 6./KG 76.
-29.08.1942 Grigoriy S. Danilov (807 ShAP) Bf.110E-2 "S9+BH" Unknown crew 1./ZG 1.
-5.09.1942 Ivan Vovkogon (299 ShAP) Bf.109G-2 W.Nr.14239 Hptm. Hans Oehlschläger Stab I./JG 52.
-5.09.1942 Fiodor Zhigarin (299 ShAP) Bf.109G-2 W.Nr.? Unknown crew (50% damage) 3./JG 52
-9.09.1942 Pavel S. Vinogradov (694 ShAP, 228 ShAD) Bf.109G-2 W.Nr.13442 Ltn. Alfred Franke (KIA) 2./JG 53 Experte with 60 victories
-29.09.1942 Aleksandr Scherbanin (57 ShAP KBF) Bf.109G-2 W.Nr.13613 Ltn. Erwin Leykauf 11./JG 54 Experte with 29 victories then, he would claim a total of 33 Taran Scherbanin KIA.
-21.02.1943 Talgat Y. Begeldinov (144 GShAP, 9 GShAD) Bf.109G-2/R6 W.Nr.13949 Maj. Hans "Assi" Hahn (POW) Gruppenkomandeur II./JG 54 Experte with 108 victories
-20.08.1943 Of course the already mentioned case of Pavel Evdokimov downing Erich Hartmann.
-8.09.1943 Talgat Y. Begeldinov (144 GShAP, 9 GShAD) Ju.87D-5 W.Nr.130845 Unknown crew (30% damage) 8./StG 2.
-14.02.1945 Vasiliy Karaman (806 ShAP, 206 ShAD) Fw.190A-8 W.Nr.960282 Obltn. Otto Kittel (KIA) 2./JG 54 Experte with 267 victories
Those are only same examples (I'm still researching about this matter). But so far it seems that in many cases the Shturmovik fliers were not the preys, but instead became the hunters.
I hope this info helps you, Rob.
Diego

[Johannes]

Hi

Regarding the term "fraudulent", I would use this as an advancement on "overclaim", yes, Wurmheller was such a severe overclaimer that it was more than that. Do you remember the Jg27 ace who crept up behind the unit super Schwarm and found them firing-off there amo over the desert, and retuned to tell his C.O what he had seen, and you know that when they got back, it was all heavy claiming......that's fraudulence. now Jg26 and Jg2 often overlapped, attacking the same formations, when Jg26 claimed alone, it was more than quite accurate, when the wto both claimed the Allied losses simply did not match up to Luftwaffe claims, yet some Jg2 pilots were honest. Assuming that the Russian losses have been calculated correctly then Jg5 were above overclaiming, in fact overclaiming can be acquired by just being mistaking, if you think it went down are you a fraud or just plain mistaken. Another person who made outrageous claims was August Lambert, he was disliked by his C.O, jealousy, or did his C.O suspect somthing?
With Jg5 it would seem that it wasn't just get one claim two, if fact I read somewhere that this units pilots were quite happy to witness more claims than actually occurence, well in the far North anyway!
Strange thing also about Hartmann, only two u/c ever!
Perhaps we need the Russian actual losses so we can scrutinise them!

Regards

Johannes

[DiegoZampini]

Dear Johannes:

Originally Posted by Johannes

Hi
Another person who made outrageous claims was August Lambert, he was disliked by his C.O, jealousy, or did his C.O suspect somthing?

Not surprisingly, both Hartmann and Lambert fought in the same place - Crimea peninsula. I barely researched about this matter, but it seems that the Soviet actual losses of 4 VA and VVS ChF in late 1943-early 1944 were not that serious like the claims of JG 52 and SchG 1 might indicate.

With Jg5 it would seem that it wasn't just get one claim two, if fact I read somewhere that this units pilots were quite happy to witness more claims than actually occurence, well in the far North anyway!

You are talking about the article "Pishem 8, 2 v ume" ("We write 8, but have 2 in mind"): The author clearly shows the huge overclaiming of one of the JG 5 "stars" - Rudolf Müller. Only 37 out of his 92 claims can be corroborated by Soviet records, and so did all his buddies.

Strange thing also about Hartmann, only two u/c ever!
Perhaps we need the Russian actual losses so we can scrutinise them!

It seems that Eduard Morozov (author of Vozdushnaya Bitva na Sevastopole 1941-1942 gg (Air Battle over Sevastopol 1941-42) prepares a new book about the air battles over Crimea 1943-44. It might help a lot to clarify how many losses did the Russians suffer, and to solve this discussion (at least regarding Hartmann and Albert).
Kind regards,
Diego

[Rasmussen]

Originally Posted by DiegoZampini

-29.09.1942 Aleksandr Scherbanin (57 ShAP KBF) Bf.109G-2 W.Nr.13613 Ltn. Erwin Leykauf 11./JG 54 Experte with 29 victories then, he would claim a total of 33 Taran Scherbanin KIA.

Regarding his flightbook he was shot down by light russian AAA ... nothing from "Feindberührung mit IL 2" or taran .

regards
Rasmussen

[Evgeny Velichko]

Originally Posted by DiegoZampini

...
-21.02.1943 Talgat Y. Begeldinov (144 GShAP, 9 GShAD) Bf.109G-2/R6 W.Nr.13949 Maj. Hans "Assi" Hahn (POW) Gruppenkomandeur II./JG 54 Experte with 108 victories...
Diego

Diego: Talgat is wrong lad here. I will quote a part of research of N.Egorov and M.Bykov (sorry, in russian, have no time now to translate. May be Nokose could help?)

Незадолго до 9.00 утра с аэродрома Рельбицы поднялась шестерка Ме-109, ведомая командиром II/JG54, майором Ханом. Задачей шестерки была свободная охота и поиск советских самолетов атаковавших отступающие от Демянска немецкие колонны. Район охоты обозначен зап. Демянска - Рамушево. Примерно в это же время (плюс два часа по Москве. Разница плюс зимнее время) с аэродрома Заборовье поднялась шестерка Ла-5, 169 ИАП, ведомая капитаном Числовым, с задачей патрулирования района котла.
По докладу ведомого Хана, оберлейтенанта Штотца, контакт с группой 8 Ла-5, состоялся в 9.09 над южной кромкой котла, на высоте 2500 метров. Пара Хан-Штотц отделилась от группы и атаковала советские самолеты с превышения в 200 м. По воспоминаниям Хана, они атаковали группу Аэрокобр, после чего Хан сбил одного, который взорвался в воздухе, а самолет атакованый Штоцем сильно задымил, после чего из него выпрыгнул летчик. По нашим данным в первой атаке был сбит и погиб старший лейтенант Воробьев, а младший лейтенант Баландин сумел покинуть горящую машину с парашютом. После чего обе группы и наша и немецкая рассеялись и бой продолжался в в виде отдельных столкновений. Штотц потерял ведущего и был вовлечен в маневренный бой с лидером советской группы, после чего подбитый самолет Числова вынужден был выйти из боя и тянуть в сторону своего аэродрома. Хан попытался атаковать самолет Гражданинова, но сам подвергся атаке, его ведомого, старшего сержанта Давыдова. Бой Хана наблюдали немцы из оставшейся четверки. После того, как Хан остался один против двух советских самолетов, к нему на помощь поспешила пара Оберфельдфебеля Реппле. По докладу самого Реппле: "Я хотел атаковать Ла-5, летевший чуть ниже. Но увидел, что он уже находится под атакой Ме-109. Я идентифицировал наш самолет, как принадлежавший майору Хану. Тогда я стал набирать высоту. Вскоре после этого заметил два самолета, и понял, что это Ла-5-е. Я стал пикировать на них и заметил, что они преследуют Ме-109." Однако Реппле опоздал, Гражданинов и Давыдов добились попаданий в Ме-109. Реппле успел сделать только длиную заградительную очередь, после чего, оба Ла-5 прекратили атаки и ушли на юг. Подбитый Ме-109 стал снижаться в северо-западном напралении к своей территории. По словам Реппле видимых повреждений на нем не было.
Хан не дотянул до своих. Он последний раз связался со Штотцем и передал следующее: "Штотц, они преподали папе хороший урок. Я должен совершить вынужденную посадку". После чего сел возле дороги из Новой Деревни, юго-западнее Демянска, недалеко от проходящей маршевой колонны.
Хан был доставлен в Заборовье, где встретился с пилотами 32 ГИАП и 169 ИАП.
После чего, он был перевезен в Выползово. Где его допрашивали несколько раз.

Бой воспроизведен по следующим источникам:

ЦАМО. Оперсводки 63 ГИАП.
ЦАМО. Оперсводки 3 ГИАД.
BA/MA. RLM victory rolls.
М. Быков. Списки побед летчиков ВВС РККА 1941-1945 гг.
J. Crandall "Major Hans "Assi" Hahn. The Man and his machines"
H. Hahn "Ich spreche die Wahrheit"
Ф. Полынин "Боевые маршруты"
Ф. Костенко "Корпус крылатой гвардии"

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Johannes

To answer Huy Horta

From the Luftwaffe point of view, in the West they recorded and examined the crash sites of pilots claims …

Johannes

I have found incidents in Italy where they simply can't have done this, even where the claimed aircraft crashed around the Germans' own airfield. Had they searched, there would not have been enough wrecked aircraft for the claims that were allowed. They had a strong formal verification system but such systems are not always operated perfectly.

[DiegoZampini]

Rasmussen:

Originally Posted by Rasmussen

Regarding his flightbook he was shot down by light russian AAA ... nothing from "Feindberührung mit IL 2" or taran .

I know, that officially Leykauf himself credited his shootdown to the AAA. About this episode Christer Bergstrom says (Black Cross Red Star. Vol.3, p. 204-205): "Leykauf recalls that HE WAS PURSUING AN IL-2 AT DUBROVKA, his aircraft was severely hit by enemy groundfire, ACCORDING TO LEYKAUF, which forced him to bail out. The corresponding Soviet claim, ACCORDING TO WHICH THE IL-2 (FROM 57 SHAP/VVS KBF) THAT HAD BEEN SET AFIRE BY A BF.109 RAMMED THIS GERMAN FIGHTER, seems to be less credible."
Even I disagree with Bergstrom -I have no reason why do not believe that Scherbanin did not ramm Leyhauf, I CONSIDER THE RUSSIAN VERSION CREDIBLE- the shootdown of Leykauf occurred during a combat against Il-2s. It is not hard for me to think that Leykauf flamed Scherbanin's Il-2, and considering it finished, he then realized that was near the Soviet lines and focused in the AAA fire. Unseen to Leykauf, the wounded Scherbanin decided to ram his Shturmovik against Leykauf's Bf.109G, who in good faith thought that have been downed by flak. Leykauf would not be the first pilot who did not see what struck it, and wrongly assumed that was AAA.
Kind regards,
Diego

[DiegoZampini]

Dear Evgeniy:

Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko

Diego: Talgat is wrong lad here. I will quote a part of research of N.Egorov and M.Bykov (sorry, in russian, have no time now to translate. May be Nokose could help?)

I know that other version - that Hahn had been shot down by La-5 ace Pavel Grazhdanikov of 169 IAP. But the account of Begeldinov is that vivide, that so far I prefered to credit him with that particular victory.
If you want, I myself can translate later that excrept, that you posted about Grazdanikov's victory, to share it with the other participants. I will also, if you don't mind, translate the account of Talgat Begeldinov, where he describes his battle with Hans Hahn, so we can decide which is more probable to shot down Hahn - Grazhdanikov or Begeldinov.
Unfortunatelly, I will translate both excrepts later. Today will be a very bussy day for me. But tomorrow you people of the forum will be able to read both accounts in English.
Kind regards, Evgeniy
Diego