Erich Hartmann - several questions

[kaki3152]

Johannes,

I've always been interested in Herr Bar's victories and I noticed that some of claims were just damaged, i.e., some of his claims over the Desert and Malta. He seemed to think that if he fired at a target, he always shot it down. Obviously, he did shot down some victims with a single volley."Baer always hits what he shoots at" may be true but he didn't always finish the job. Still, you're correct there are many which are correct and verified.
As far as JG-2 personnel, I think Hubert Huppertz, Hohagen and Lemke were "good" claimers with some inevitable overclaiming.
Guenther Rall is another ace whose abilities were verified with no doubt. In his last combat, he shot down two 56th FG P-47Ds but only claimed one.
Yes, I agree some Allied aces were also fraudsters. The amount of oveclaiming in some RAF/Commonwealth squadrons was truly spectacular.

[kaki3152]

One book which which frankly addresses this problem is "Top Secret Bird" by Wolfgang Spaete. In this book, he has admits that this was a probem with some "Aces". Spaete uses pseudonyms for the most egregious cases but one can figure out who he is talking about in some cases.

[mathieu]

Hi

About Bader, is there any information how many of his claims were false?

Regards,

Mathieu

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

Could some of you guys please post some new findings regarding these issues, as you have obviously judging by your comments made some groundbraking work here.

´Johannes´s are comments are especially interesting. Judging by the very form of these I would assume that he would be willing to make a post with his research referencing the original sources used on the German and Soviet side?

I assume that the rest of this board would be very interested in this as the the possibilities for studying especially original Soviet records of all involved units in depth is something which is out of reach for most of us due to time limitations, funding issues and/or language problems.

If you are not willing to share your research free of charge, could you please list any books, articles or other publications you have made on the issue?

Regards,
Andreas B

[James A Pratt III]

This Hartmann mess needs to be exmined in detail to show if he was a fraud or not. The claims records vs losses records are available some people need to try and match them up. A posting on this site some years ago noted that VVS combat losses were slightly lower than german claims during the year 1943 so it looks like Hartmanns claims for this year at least may be at least halfway or more right.

[Nokose]

I haven't heard anything bad about Obstlt Hannes Trauloft's record of the Stab/JG54. I was able to find possible matches for three of his claims on the 14 Feb43 14:10-14:30 for three Il-2's. In Ilya G. Prokofev's book "Soviet Aviation In Combat Above Krasnyy Bor and Smerdynya Februray -March 1943" (In Russian). During the Smerdynya offensive Il-2 (#4037) Ml. Lt. Zalya Akmalovich Akmalov, Il-2 (#1194) Ml. Lt. Vladimir Ivanovich Trenev and Il-2(#5605) Ml. Lt. Anatoliy Nikolaevich Kuzovkin and gunner Kapt. Vladimir Ivanovich Sarychev all went MIA in the area and time of the Trauloft's claims. Their unit was the 230 ShAP.

[christian]

Hi

Trautloft fly with Hptm. Kath and Fw. Fobrich freie Jagd in the area Ljuban-Tossno-Mga. They have some fights with some Il-2 with some fighters. Trautloft shot down the three Il-2, Forbig another Il-2 in short time. He was afrait about the firecraft from his new Fw 190.

Greetings Christian

[Nokose]

The three Il-2 that Trautloft got were leaving after the attack and were not seen again. So that know one thinks that it's a overclaim there were two others lost. Uffz Horst Forbrig 3./JG54 made a claim at 14:18 but I can't find another German pilot from JG54 making a claim in that area (Maybe with the next of JFV volume on the Ost Front). 230 ShAP Ml. Lt Grigoriy Grigororevich Koloyarov (KIA) Il-2 (#4037) and Ml. Lt. Nikolai Andreevich Shugaya (KIA) Il-2 (#4121) fell 1.5-2 km NW of Makarevskaya Pustyn.

[DiegoZampini]

[Matheu

Originally Posted by mathieu

Hi,
Is there any particular reason why he was not that popular? And about his claims, how many can be confirmed with the Russian records that became available after the collapse of the Soviet union?

According to Russian historian Dmitriy Khazanov, who matched his claims with Soviet loss records, only 80 out of Hartmann's 352 victories can be confirmed.
Khazanov mention several ocasions when he (and his buddies) claimed a lot of victories, but the VVS suffered few or not losses at all. Such cases were:
* 29.05.1944: During the Soviet air strike against the Romanian airbase of Novela, Erich Hartmann claimed to shot down three "LaGG-7s" (La-5s). In fact, the Soviet 5 VA did suffer losses - three Il-2, but the 302 IAD, which provided escort to the attack and was equipped with La-5FN, did not suffer losses at all.
* 4.06.1944: That day, during the fourth sortie of the day, Hartmann and his wingman Birkner were jumped by two Aircobras, with Hartmann claiming to turn the wits and shooting down both P-39s. Jazanov determined that they were the Aircobras flown by Mayor B. B. Gakhaet and Leytenant Nikolay L. Trofimov of the famous 16 GIAP, and both Aircobras returned home without a single scrach!!
* 4.07.1944: Hartmann claimed three Il-2s north of Yassy, which were attacking German positions of artillery. The formation attacked by Hartmann were 12 Il-2s of the 2 ShAK led by Leytenant Frolov, but they lost only one Shturmovik, which made a force belly-landing on Soviet held territory.
* 24.08.1944: That was the day when Hartmann claimed his victories Nos.299 to 303 over the Soviet beachhead of Sandomierz across the Vistula river - all four were P-39s. The only unit equipped with Aircobras providing cover to Sandomierz were the ones of the elite 9 GIAD led by Polkovnik Aleksandr Pokryshkin - and did not suffer a single loss in air combat that day! There is a P-39 pilot missing after becaming separated of his comrades, which could have been downed by Hartmann. But at most Hartmann could score only one victory that day, never four.

Other example is the combat when he was shot down on 20 August 1943: according his account in his autobiography written by Trevor Constable, he shot down two Il-2s when was hit by flak, belly-landed and captured by a short period of time (later he evaded).
If fact Khazanov could determine, that according to the Soviet records, what Hartmann attacked was a group of Shturmoviks of the 232 ShAP. One of the Il-2 pilots, Leytenat Pavel Evdokimov, saw how a "Messer" jumped his buddy V. Ermakov, and shot at close range a 20-mm burst against the Bf.109, which performed a belly-landing - indeed this was Hartmann's Bf.109G-6. No Il-2 was lost by 232 ShAP that day, even when two were damaged. Once again, Hartmann "kills" were overclaims (even when in this case seem that both were in good faith). And he was not downed by flak, but by Shturmovik pilot Pavel Evdokimov.
Khazanov conceeds that indeed Hartmann was a dangerous opponent, crediting him with at least two victories against Soviet aces: on 16.10.1943 he shot down the La-5 of Starshiy Leytenant Ivan Nikitovich Sytov (30 victories, 5 GIAP), and on 1.03.1945 the Yak-9 of Kapitan Sergey Ivanovich Lazarev (728 IAP, 256 IAD), but not before Lazarev shot down his the Bf.109G-14 of Hartmann's wingman G. Kapito (Lazarev's victory No.26)
I hope you found this information usefull.
Kind regards.
Diego

[Johannes]

Regarding matching claims:-
Personnally I can check only those in the West, so I rely on other people's checking for the East. However I do have complex biographies on 2500 + aces, and anopther 5000 scoring non-aces, and those that I know to be fraudulent in the West all show the same pattern to there claims, Hartmann shows this pattern, Rall does not, however as with Marseille it doesn't mean so it must be, but shows that he probably is! Also when somebody is reaching a significant number i.e 50, 100, 150, 200, 250, 300 they seem to have more big days, seems that all the pace setters(expect Molders) seem to be dodgy i.e Gollob, Graf, Nowotny, Hartmann, especially when you get one ace Schwarm(think of Nowotny), or even Staffel(think of 6./Jg5) also Hartmann did join the Karaya Staffel(think of Graf). Gollob made huge daily claims to reached 150, yet when he flew for a day with another Geschwadeder and wingman(Petermann) he makes just a single claim, I would guess because he didn't know Petermann, so I would guess this one is honest. Look at Galland and Priller, just two or three for there best day, then look at the fraudster, Rudorffer, Wick,Wurmheller, Buhligen, all have big days in the West!
Also the same person who stated "80" for Hartman, states that Lipfert's were very accurate/honest...............and you've guessed it Lipfert's claim pattern would suggest he was honest.

So to summerise, Hartmann's pattern of claims suggest that he only should be a fraud, plus his two years of teriffic claiming seem to have be examined against Russian losses and we are told "80", I would think this excludes his first few earlier claims, and those in 1945!, which would actaully still bring him upto "100+), in fact those for 1945 could not have been included in the scrutiny, as the actually dates/time/place and aircraft type are very uncertain!

Johannes