Erich Hartmann - several questions

[Pilot]

but I never submitted the claims, as I was too busy trying to stay alive to watch them crash

This is very important to point as well this is not only case that records was not made at all (or in some cases intentionally made incorrect)

Any overall opinion about Hartmann total score? Over 300, under 300, near his claim... ?

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by krichter33

Once again it is just speculation. Yes, it is interesting, but without evidence that they actually committed fraud, you should stop referring to them as such. You stated Marseille had strange patterns as well, but as many as 3/4 of his claims are confirmed, and therefore he is "honest." All this shows is that these patterns don't necessarily mean a particular ace is an outright fraud or liar. It is speculation.

I basically agree with you, but the other problem I see is when the issue is stated in terms of 'fraud' or 'honesty', then the tendency can be to 'over verify' ace claims.

When the issue is stated in terms of a man's personal integrity, it's only fair to say his integrity is supported if he claimed 2, his comrades claimed another 3, and the opponent really lost 2. He *might* have downed both. But such an evaluation tends to distort the actual picture of claim accuracy. This is why IMO it's usually best to de-emphasize the issue of personal honesty when it comes to evaluating claim accuracy. The best estimate of the ace's score in that combat is 0.4, IMO.

We're focusing on the Germans here, but some air arms had typically low claim accuracies (well, German claims were pretty inaccurate too in some periods). Does this mean the typical claiming pilot in those low accuracy air arms was a 'fraudster'? Any such suggestion tends to make the discussion emotional, nationalistic and non-objective. So it's best to just stay away from that aspect, IMHO. OTOH quantifying actual claim accuracy, at least for whole units and air arms, is key to understanding fighter combat history.

Joe

[Nokose]

I took a look through Christer Bergstroem's book "Bagration to Berlin" and saw these claims that he wrote down. 18Sep43 812 IAP lost 3 Yak-1 of which Hartmann claimed 2, Friedrich Obleser 1 and Johannes Bunzek 1. Who's to say that Obleser or Bunzek's Yak-1 didn't go down. 29Sep43 Hartmann possibly ended the life of Mayor Vladimir Semenishin in a Airacobra of the 104 GIAP (15 victory & 11 shared ace). He lists that Hartmann on the 20Aug43 was possibly shot down by the rear gunner of Lt. P. Yevdokimov's Il-2 of the 232 ShAP. That was the day he was captured by the Russians and escaped.
I don't have any problem with Hartmann's score. It may not be 352 and only 80 but it hasn't been proved either way by someone who is UNBIAS. Dmitriy Khazanov might be bias. I have several of his books that have some good facts if you "pick" through what he has to say. I have seen only praise by him for one German pilot of JG51. Maybe Bernd Barbas should write a book on Erich Hartmann but with a co-author from Russia like Vitaliy Gorbach. He's fair and could provide the Russian losses and point of view on many of the dogfigths.
I have respect for what Hermann Graf and Hartmann did at the end of the war. They stayed with their men and were captured. They could have flew out with the rest of the pilots and left everyone else to get away on their own. How many of the people out there who have a wife and family would do that?

[Johannes]

With regards to Marseille actually downing abouth three quartres of his claims, he was such an egoist like Wurmheller that I would have bet money on him making fraudulent claims like Wurmheller, but the fact is that i believe he thought that he had shot down 152 aircraft(plus six unconfirmed). Now Egon Mayer's claims stand up reasonable well for a Jg2 pilot, and he had huge problem's with Wurmheller, don't know what, but I guess he thought he was on the fiddle.
Regarding Bernd Barbas doing a Hartmann book, he's heavily engrossed in a Gerhard Barkhorn book at the moment(huge numbers of coloured photo's) Whereas Bernd thinks that Hartmann was honest, he seems to think that Barkhorn was the better man, or at lea\st he preferes him. Sad thing is that Barkhorn's medals have all been stolen!
Regarding other nations fraudsters.......the American's overclaimed, but not sure whether it's fraud or everybody shooting at everthing all the time. The "Ace"(or not) Douglas Bader was outragous in claiming, in fact it was his downfall, in his last combat he caught a staffel of Bf109's but instead of attacking, he dove away, only to be mistaken as an escaping 109 and shot dowen by his own side, yet he claimed three 109's........without engaging the enemy!!! He managed to carry off his deception for forty year, made fame and fortune from it as well!!!!
Also I wonder if Khaznov used Hartmann's old list or the Micro Film generated one to get his "80"?

Regards

Johannes

[krichter33]

Johannes, why do you still throw around terms like "fraudster." I don't know if Wurmheller or any of the others you mentioned actually lied, maybe they did, maybe they didn't. Yes, it's obvious they overclaimed, but as I and other posters have already mentioned numerous times, unless you have actual proof they did fabricate claims then stop referring to them as fraudsters. I basically agree with Joe's post. I don't really know how many "kills" the top aces from all sides actually had. Like I said, I believe they pretty much all overclaimed, so their actual "kills" are never accurate. Some pilots overclaimed more than others, and yes, in some isolated instances, some pilots probably lied and fabricated scores. But like I said before I believe those pilots were the minority not the norm. Studying loss records is an important historical undertaking that shows which units and which pilots overclaimed. But as Joe said judging the personal integrity of any of these pilots is beyond the scope of any statistical endeavor. Like has been said, Marseille might have been an "egoist" which I really don't know, and his "shooting patterns" seemed "strange" yet his scores are considered very accurate with not as much overclaiming. This simply shows that anything that can be gathered out of such "facts" are all speculation. No one will ever now the actual scores of the top aces. It is not like readjusting U Boat aces claims, which are quite easy to do. So, myself personally, when I look at the "victory" lists of the top aces, from all nations, I accept the scores credited, with the knowledge that ALL these scores include overclaims and are simply the "victories" credited. Yet, I never challenge the personal integrity of any of these pilots, and neither do most professional aviation historians.

[mars]

Nokose,Regardless whether they choose to stay with their men or not, they would be handed over to Soviet anyway

[DiegoZampini]

Nokose:

Originally Posted by Nokose

I took a look through Christer Bergstroem's book "Bagration to Berlin" and saw these claims that he wrote down. 18Sep43 812 IAP lost 3 Yak-1 of which Hartmann claimed 2, Friedrich Obleser 1 and Johannes Bunzek 1. Who's to say that Obleser or Bunzek's Yak-1 didn't go down. 29Sep43 Hartmann possibly ended the life of Mayor Vladimir Semenishin in a Airacobra of the 104 GIAP (15 victory & 11 shared ace). He lists that Hartmann on the 20Aug43 was possibly shot down by the rear gunner of Lt. P. Yevdokimov's Il-2 of the 232 ShAP. That was the day he was captured by the Russians and escaped.

Well, Khazanov credited to Hartmann two other Soviet aces - Sytov and Lazaryev. Regarding Hartmann being shot down by the rear gunner, I think he is mixing up two different incidents:
5.11.1942: The day when Hartmann claimed his first victim (an Il-2), and asserts that he had to belly land because of debris coming from his prey damaged his aircraft, what in fact happened that it was struck by the machinegun fire from the rear gunner of a 7 GShAP's Il-2. His Bf.109G-2 resulted with a 30% damage.
20.08.1942: Lt. Pavel Yevdokimov (232 ShAP, 7 ShAK) shot down Hartmann's Bf.109G-6 W.Nr. 20485, but using his Il-2 Shturmovik like a fighter - IT WAS NOT the rear gunner.
There were a lot of cases when aggressive Il-2 pilots struck back and shot down the Bf.109s or Fw.190s which were jumping them. If you want I can list them there, and many experten fell that way.
One thing more that I would like to point out, is the fact that only 15 out of Hartmann's 352 claims were Il-2s. Taking into account these two cases when he was shot down by Il-2 (one falling by the rear gunner, and the second by an aggressively flown Shturmovik) one understand why: he learnt to respect the Ilyushins, and became reluctant to attack them, evidently doing so only if absolutely necessary.
Kind regards,
Diego

[krichter33]

I would love a Barkhorn book. He's one of the lesser known aces, despite his high credited score. It should be interesting.

[Nokose]

Mars,
Yes, that was a "shameful" event if what happen to the refugees happen as described in the book.
Diego,
I have another source for the 20Aug43 incident with Hartmann being shot down from "Над Огненной Дугой" by Vitaliy Gorbach. Chapter 5.3 "On 20 August Erich Hartmann will be shot down by the fire of a Shturmovik from the composition of the 8 VA and only good luck will allow the future Luftwaffe star to avoid waiting to the end of the war in a prisoner of war camp". He doesn't say what regiment, pilot or gunner.

[Buz]

This has been an interesting discussion, but alas the want to review a pilot’s score seems to be the "in thing" these days.

I acknowledge that over claiming is a constant in war, especially air side of the conflict, with closure speeds in excess of 700mph, split second the opposition is in the gun sight, the need to keep the head on a swivel stick, the need to keep control of your aircraft, and most importantly the need and want to survive.

Of interest I find the statements in this discussion about Hans-Joachim Marseille's claims as being quite accurate of note, due to my own interest in the Curtiss Kittyhawk Family.

I will firstly state that my belief is that Marseille's score is and always will be 158. I, however, have yet to be able to confirm all his claims against first and second source data for the P-40 aircraft. Does this make him a "fraudster" - certainly not, does it mean that P-40/P-46 claims were miss-identified - possibly (in the case of the P-46 certainly). Could it be that the aircraft although damaged made it back to home plate, the pilot claiming in good faith - certainly (bare in mind just how much damage a P-40 can take - I'll also assume that the Russian aircraft could also take a beating as well).

Does this mean I must review and write to the world that his score was “XX”, being lower than what he claimed - Not at all. I can tell the world with some certainty which of his claims can be tallied with available records, the rest are presently unidentified, or in some cases disputed as other German pilots claimed during the same sorties/timeframes/areas as well as other airforce pilots claiming as well.

Maybe a thought would be post the ones that can be verified through other documentation (sources quoted), and that way others who may have additional data from untapped sources can add or provide further relevant details, so that we as a community can further our knowledge of these airmen.

I believe that people should understand that the scores stand, for right or wrong. Also in many cases the primary source of data is no longer available to be checked - These being the pilots themselves.....most are not here to defend themselves. The written records, both official and unofficial can and are at time in error, with both dates, times and in some cases area.

In many cases this form of historical need for accuracy is a blight to our research as I know personally of pilots not wishing to discuss their operations and experiences because "What's the point, no-one believes us anyhow" (direct quote from one pilot).

Regards

Buz