Erich Hartmann - several questions

[kennethklee]

I totally forgot I initiated this thread and have not been back until now--I'm amazed and gratified at the large number of responses and active discussion, and even more so with the new information about Hartmann and other Luftwaffe aces.

Johannes--I had no idea Hartmann had such a poor reputation among his comrades and that he is suspected of being a prominent overclaimer. You are right, The Blond Knight of Germany has long been my primary source of information about Hartmann and it certainly idealizes him. Interestingly, although I certainly can't explain, when I read the uncredited interview w/Hartmann 1-2 days before my initial post, which was motivated by the interview, I sensed for the 1st time that the real Hartmann was different from the character portrayed in Blond Knight, just not sure how at the time. My vague impression was Hartmann was a harder and less charitable and compassionate person than Blond Knight had led me to believe.

I am perhaps an "ugly American" who is not fluent in languages besides English--and perhaps some could dispute I am fluent in English! Hence, growing up in the late 1970's and early 1980's, the primary books about Luftwaffe fighter pilots accessible to me were the much-maligned and discredited Toliver/Constable Luftwaffe fighter aces book and the Hartmann biography Blond Knight of Germany. Only recently over the past 10 years have I become aware of more detailed and creditable information on Luftwaffe fighter pilots in general and Hartmann in particular. I know the hard-core enthusiast may scoff at and refute my comments by pointing out I could have taught myself sufficient rudimentary German to read the German-language references, or at least pored over them with a German-English dictionary in hand. I can't say such an enthusiast would be wrong, I can just say for various reasons, mainly a busy career with a heavy night/weekend call schedule and perhaps insufficient moral fiber and motivation, I did not do so.

I am happy Bernd Barbas is writing a Barkhorn biography. Not being critical, just making an observation--in a way, it's a shame that the Barkhorn and other biographies are being written well after most Luftwaffe veterans have passed away. Hindsight is 20/20, of course, and I also realize that writing about Luftwaffe and Axis personnel and histories was not looked upon favorably for many years after WWII. I know the Toliver/Constable tomes had little documentation or rigid research basis, but they served one valuable service--being the first substantial English-language books to cover Luftwaffe fighter pilots. These tomes further developed my burgeoning interest in the Luftwaffe. I recall Galland, in his foreword for the Blond Knight book, thanked the authors and acknowledged the role played by the authors' Fighter Aces of the Luftwaffe in edifying much of the English-speaking world about and negating to an extent their negative images about Luftwaffe fighter pilots.

Reading the new information that provide glimpses about Hartmann's true and perhaps discredited reputation and character, I am very curious about one stat attributed to Hartmann--did he truly lose only one wingman (bomber pilot Capito, who parachuted to safety) in his 1400+ flight career, or is this another myth?

I apologize if my comment about contemporary biographies was construed as unjustly critical--that was not my intent at all, I was simply bemoaning the fact that few Luftwaffe veterans are alive and fewer still can/will contribute to these books. Thanks much to all who responded for a very lively and informative discussion containing much interesting new information and speculation.

Ken

[ruspren]

Originally Posted by VtwinVince

Regarding the JG 27 incident, my uncle was 'Abschussoffizier' with JG 27 at the time, and I knew Stigler quite well. This story was not the most popular topic, and was not enthusiastically discussed. Didn't Sawallisch commit suicide over this?

I know he disapeared on a test flight shortly afterwards. I believe it was over the sea and his body washed up sometime later. I'm at work and can't check but I hadn't heard that this was a suicide. He was the highest claimer of the four.
Russ

[VtwinVince]

Russ, I can't remember where I read that this was a suicide. Certainly the whole episode demands more intense study IMO.

[Nokose]

On a previous thread Erwin Sawallisch's name was listed but his victories up through Russia were verified. I noticed that while he was serving there with Stab/JG77 (listed in JFV 6/II) he shot down a MiG-3 on the 15Jul41 for his 7th victory (no other information of time and location). He was the only one in the German units in the south claiming a MiG-3 that day. In Denes Bernad's book "From Barbarossa to Odessa Volume 1" it has St.Lt. Alexander Pokrishkin of the 55 IAP going down after a reconn. mission into the swamp 3km N. of Grozeshti. Wondered if this was possibly Sawallisch's MiG-3. Maybe Denes can give us his opinion since his research was in that area.

[krichter33]

I don't know what Hartmann's real character was like. Of course I'm sure it was much more complex than portrayed in "The Blond Knight of Germany." However his reputation has not been discredited by any hard facts; only rumors, speculation, suspicions, and faulty research (Khazanov). I, for one, welcome any new proven evidence, from a historical perspective, to better understand who these pilots were. Whomever the "true" Hartmann was, until speculations and rumors can be backed by actual facts, calling him, or any other historical figure, a fraudster or questioning his character is intellectually and morally dishonest.

[John Beaman]

Originally Posted by krichter33

I don't know what Hartmann's real character was like. Of course I'm sure it was much more complex than portrayed in "The Blond Knight of Germany." However his reputation has not been discredited by any hard facts; only rumors, speculation, suspicions, and faulty research (Khazanov). I, for one, welcome any new proven evidence, from a historical perspective, to better understand who these pilots were. Whomever the "true" Hartmann was, until speculations and rumors can be backed by actual facts, calling him, or any other historical figure, a fraudster or questioning his character is intellectually and morally dishonest.

Amen! documented proof, proof, proof, ad infinitum!

[Nefiakoff]

I know he disapeared on a test flight shortly afterwards. I believe it was over the sea and his body washed up sometime later. I'm at work and can't check but I hadn't heard that this was a suicide. He was the highest claimer of the four.

So called "Experten-Schwarm" was active frauding quite short, 1-2 weeks of August 42 I suppose. Name of group's leader was Oblt. Vögl, he was staka 4./JG 27 and the only officer among them. However, Fiffi Stahlschmidt spotted 5 Bf 109s shooting into the sand, additional pilot was Uffz. Just (he became POW at end of that month).

I've met three opinions connected with death of Sawallisch - suicide, Bf 109 failure during check-out flight or even mechanics' revenge after wasting their work. His body was washed ashore next day.

Regards,
Nef

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by DiegoZampini

Furthermore, I distrust the German loss archives. As Dánes Bárnad stated here, the Germans were much less reliable than the Russians to record losses, and that matches my experience with them.

Anyone's archives may be incomplete or inaccurate for all the usual reasons of human fallibility. I know little about the Eastern Front but please bear in mind that it was important in ANY air force to report losses because that was the only way a unit could get replacement aircraft. I have seen several messages from higher Luftwaffe commands to units demanding explanations for day-to-day discrepancies in teir strength and serviceability figures. I would infer from this that the matter was taken very seriously in the Luftwaffe.

[Nikita Egorov]

Originally Posted by Nokose

On a previous thread Erwin Sawallisch's name was listed but his victories up through Russia were verified. I noticed that while he was serving there with Stab/JG77 (listed in JFV 6/II) he shot down a MiG-3 on the 15Jul41 for his 7th victory (no other information of time and location). He was the only one in the German units in the south claiming a MiG-3 that day. In Denes Bernad's book "From Barbarossa to Odessa Volume 1" it has St.Lt. Alexander Pokrishkin of the 55 IAP going down after a reconn. mission into the swamp 3km N. of Grozeshti. Wondered if this was possibly Sawallisch's MiG-3. Maybe Denes can give us his opinion since his research was in that area.

Michael,

According to documents of 20 SAD this was belly landing due to orientation lost and fuel shortage.

[Nikita Egorov]

Originally Posted by krichter33

I don't know what Hartmann's real character was like. Of course I'm sure it was much more complex than portrayed in "The Blond Knight of Germany." However his reputation has not been discredited by any hard facts; only rumors, speculation, suspicions, and faulty research (Khazanov). I, for one, welcome any new proven evidence, from a historical perspective, to better understand who these pilots were. Whomever the "true" Hartmann was, until speculations and rumors can be backed by actual facts, calling him, or any other historical figure, a fraudster or questioning his character is intellectually and morally dishonest.

Hartmann is a contradictory person. From one side it is evident that he overclaimed to a certain extent. The reason for that is unclear for the moment, was it personal ambitions or he simply did not care to observe the results of his attacks, due to speed disengagement. I saw some of the reports from our side of clashes with what was supposed to be Hartmann's Me-109. Everywhere reports say: immediate attack from above at high speed and immediate disengage without starting combat. This is a common tactics for almost all German aces and in this case real success is in marksmanship. Many of the attacked planes were not shot down but shot up, hit by one or several bullets without serious damage inflicted. Many were not hit at all. The majority of such claims were credited to Hartmann as confirmed, though the counterpart was not destoryed completely or in some cases not hit either. He prefered to attack only fighters, vulnerable to sudden interception, enjoying the superiority against ill-trained Soviet fighter pilots and inferior Soviet tactics. Thus, we have only 23 bombers and close-support planes on his account that is only 6,5 % of his score...
From another side his impeccable conduct in captivity. Many personalities were broken and somehow sided with Soviets. Hartmann never accepted any deals. I have not seen his POW dossier (It is closed for general access) but I spoke to the person, who works with POWs documents and he confirmed that almost all that written in "Blond Knight" regarding his experience in camps is more or less true, except strongly exaggerated images of the surrounding people.