Erich Hartmann - several questions

[Dénes Bernád]

Originally Posted by DiegoZampini

Dear Dénes:

Diego, a few general notes on your previous post before returning to aviation:
1, when I meant the sample of VVS loss records I saw are more complete than the Luftwaffe's, I actually meant that there were more information given on a certain loss (e.g., the engine serial number). Nothing else. I trust the Luftwaffe loss records compiled for internal purpose exactly the same way I trust the similar VVS records. If you mix ideology with facts, it's a dead end.
2, it is not up to one's assumption, or belief if Communism was a totalitarian regime (like Nazism) or not. It was. This is a historical fact. There are many specialist books dealing with this issue, check them out.
3, the Germans, Slavs (and Jews) all belong to the same human race. Therefore, anti-Slavism (certainly existing in Nazi circles) cannot be called racism.
4, Finally, everyone visiting this forum can read and understand English. Please do not use capitals when trying to emphasize a certain detail, as it amounts to shouting and this behaviour is not encouraged.

I don't intend to go off topic any further on this interesting thread, so let's not highjack it. If you wish to continue this, please open a new topic in the General section.

[DiegoZampini]

Dear Dénes:

Originally Posted by Dénes Bernád

Diego, a few general notes on your previous post before returning to aviation:
1, when I meant the sample of VVS loss records I saw are more complete than the Luftwaffe's, I actually meant that there were more information given on a certain loss (e.g., the engine serial number). Nothing else. I trust the Luftwaffe loss records compiled for internal purpose exactly the same way I trust the similar VVS records. If you mix ideology with facts, it's a dead end.

I agree. And I did not mix ideology with facts. But my question is: Did the Luftwaffe mixed ideology with facts in their loss records during WWII? I have the suspicion that they did, but of course I might be wrong on this matter. You already made it clear that you think that Luftwaffe did not.
More on this topic in the next post, and I will only speak about aviation.

3, the Germans, Slavs (and Jews) all belong to the same human race. Therefore, anti-Slavism (certainly existing in Nazi circles) cannot be called racism.

You are talking about the modern antropological and biological point view - to consider that there is only one human race, and we all belong to it, no matter whatever our color of skin, hair, eyes, shapes, etc. And I agree with such point of view.
But for common people the old concept of "race" still exists (a point that our respective scholar systems should correct). And the discrimination and subestimation of a person due to its color skin, or mother language/cultural roots/country of origin (as is the case of anti-Slavism) is known still coloqually as "Racism." Furthermore, it was the term used at the time of WWII, and that why I used the term.

4, Finally, everyone visiting this forum can read and understand English. Please do not use capitals when trying to emphasize a certain detail, as it amounts to shouting and this behaviour is not encouraged.

Understood. I apologyze. I will not use capitals again.

I don't intend to go off topic any further on this interesting thread, so let's not highjack it. If you wish to continue this, please open a new topic in the General section.

Understood too. I don't wish to go off topic, our respective points of view are very clear. My next posts on this matter will be only about aviation.
Kind regards, Dénes
Diego

[DiegoZampini]

We have discussing about how uncomplete and reliable/unreliable are the German loss records are. I will show some examples:
o In Osprey’s book P-39 Aircobra Aces of World War 2, written by George Mellinger and John Stanaway, it is included the account of the famous German ace Walter Nowotny about how he claimed to shot down three Soviet P-39s, but also his Fw.190 was seriosuly damaged by one of the Russian-flown Aircobras. Nowotny own’s testimony: “The whole fight had lasted exactly 45 minutes. After a successful landing, I climbed out of my machine dreched in sweat. I examined the damage in silence. It was worse than I realised. Half the rudder is missing and one aleiron shot to pieces. My main undercarriage tyres are bullet-holed and one cylinder and cylinder head completely shot away. More damage to the engine, bullet-riddled wings…” No exact date is given for this combat, but occurred indeed in 1943, when Nowotny began to fly the Focke-Wulf fighter. The only ocasions on that year when Nowotny claimed to shot down three P-39s in one combat occurred on 19 August and 9 October 1943. The extension of the damage mentioned by Nowotny in his Fw.190 indicates that this loss should be obligatorly recorded in German loss records, at least as damaged in a 40%-50%. However, in the available list of JG 54 losses, Nowotny appears only shot down once (on 19 July 1941, flying Bf.109E-7 WkNr 1137) and forced to belly land a second time (on 11 August 1942, also in a Messerschmitt - his Bf.109F-4 WkNr 10360 was scrapped). No trace of this shot-up Focke-Wulf nowhere the more complete list of JG 54 losses available so far , which is fully admitted by Nowotny himself. Neither on 19.08.1943 nor on 9.10.1943. On such dates there are other Fw.190s admitted lost, but they were flown by other pilots, and in the cases where no pilot’s name is given, none belong to the 1./JG 54 (where Nowotny served at that time).
o In Christer Bergstrom’s work Black Cross – Red Star, Volume 3, it is stated that “[Major Joachim] Müncheberg, holder of the Knight Cross with Oak Leaves, had been one of the most outstanding German fighter pilots on the western Front in 1941-42 and had been posted to Stab/JG 51 to be tutored in the role of Geschwaderkommodore under Major Karl-Gottfired Nordmann’s supervision. Muncheberg had the concept of air war over Russia as did most German fighter pilots on other fronts, that it was something of an ‘easy game’. After getting shot down by Soviet fighters twice within two weeks, he reconsidered his opinion.” . Bergstrom referes to the aerial battles around the Rzhev salient in July-August 1942. But to look for these two times that Joachim Müncheberg was shot down in Jochen Prien’s meticulous book (which cover the period May 1942 to early February 1943) proved to be infrunctuos – they simply are not there.
o Also in Bergstrom’s work is mentioned an audaceous raid carried out by Soviet paratroopers against the German aerodrome at Maykop at 22:00 hs on 23 October 1942. “Hans Ellendt clearly remembers that the paratroopers wreaked havoc on II./JG 52 before withdrawing. According to the official German report, only one of the II./JG 52’s Bf.109s and two Ju.52s were destroyed, […]. But according to Ellendt, the Soviet paratroopers had run along the nicely parked Bf.109s, shooting them up or heaving hand greades into their open cockpits in a quick and skillfully coducted raid. In this manner, they destroyed at least a dozen Bf.109s.” . So, there are at least 11 Messerschmitt fighters which were actually lost but did not appear in official Luftwaffe loss records.
o On the night of 25-26 October 1942 the night bombers Po-2 of the 588 NBAP flown by female pilots made a very succesful raid against Armavir, taking out most of II./KG 51 Edelweiss: “The flames spread rapidly and caught fuelled and bomb laden aircraft. Since the airfield had several units on it having a total of more than 100 Ju.88 and He.111s, there was no lack of combustible of combustible material. Only one of the II.Gruppe aircraft survived without damage. Ther unit was hastily withdrawn to Bagerovo on the Kerch Peninsula to acquire new aircraft.” A Gruppe of a German KG (Bomber Wing) consisted in about 15-20 aircraft. If only one of II./KG 51’s aircraft survived the air strike, that indicates that no less than fourteen Junkers and Heinkels were destroyed in the raid. However the official loss records mention specifically the complete destruction of only four aircraft (He.111H-6 WkNr 2948, Ju.88A-14 WkNrs 144231 and 144232, and Ju.88C-6 WkNr 460013), one written off because of a 60% damage (Ju.88A-4 WkNr 4018) and a sixth bomber damaged in a 25% (Ju.88A-4 WkNr 2256). Again, there are no less than eight more aircraft “missing” in Luftwaffe’s loss statistics.

[Rasmussen]

Originally Posted by DiegoZampini

We have discussing about how uncomplete and reliable/unreliable are the German loss records are. I will show some examples:
o However, in the available list of JG 54 losses, Nowotny appears only shot down once (on 19 July 1941, flying Bf.109E-7 WkNr 1137) and forced to belly land a second time (on 11 August 1942, also in a Messerschmitt - his Bf.109F-4 WkNr 10360 was scrapped).

Maybe we have to discuss how reliable/complete are your secondary sources and not the German loss records. Only one example:
- W.Nr. 10360 wasn't an F-4 but an G-2
- the a/c wasn't scrapped but used by Stab/ JG 54 and in January 1943 searched by Lz.4/108 and send to Erla VII in Antwerpen

Best regards
Rasmussen

[robert]

Hi Diego,

perhaps you can find in these "accurate" Russian losses 2 SB-2 bombers that had been shot down by Polish fighter in the early afternoon of 17.9.39 by railway station Nadworna? Killed Russians were buried and two were captured wounded and admitted to the hospital. But still no trace could be found in these "accurate" Russian documents.

Robert

[DiegoZampini]

Robert:

Originally Posted by robert

Hi Diego,
Perhaps you can find in these "accurate" Russian losses 2 SB-2 bombers that had been shot down by Polish fighter in the early afternoon of 17.9.39 by railway station Nadworna? Killed Russians were buried and two were captured wounded and admitted to the hospital. But still no trace could be found in these "accurate" Russian documents.
Robert

I admitt that I did not research the Russian invasion to Poland in September 1939, so I have no data on this issue. I'll see if any of my friends have researched or have books about this matter. If they have some info, no problem to share it with you.
Kind regards
Diego

[DiegoZampini]

Rasmussen:

Originally Posted by Rasmussen

Maybe we have to discuss how reliable/complete are your secondary sources and not the German loss records. Only one example:
- W.Nr. 10360 wasn't an F-4 but an G-2

You are fully right. It was a G-2. My mistake. But it is not a problem of my sources, they are reliable. It is just that I made a typo.

- the a/c wasn't scrapped but used by Stab/ JG 54 and in January 1943 searched by Lz.4/108 and send to Erla VII in Antwerpen

In fact my source says that the aircraft was damaged in a 50% - a serious damage but still not a writte-off, which seems to match with your data. But that contradicts the account of Nowotny's wingman, Karl "Quax" Schnörrer:
' "The Russians have had me shot up! I've got 'blisters' on my wings!" Nowotny cried over the radio: We desperately shook off the enemy and made a quick escape at low level. With smoke pouring out of the hit engine, Nowotny's Messerschmitt 109 made a hastily landing at Tulebya airfield. Rushing on the landing strip at 100 mph, the engine suddenly burst into flames. At a speed of 60 mph, Nowotny blew off his and left his plane in a true do-or-die jump. The burning Messerschmitt continued rolling another 30 meters, and then exploded.'
If I did not misinterpreted this account, this Bf.109 was destroyed in the explosion. Or is Schnörrer refering to another different incident? If it is the case, once again it is not mentioned in loss records either. If somebody have more info, it would be very good to discuss it.
Best regards to you too, Rasmussen. I apologyze for my earlier typo. Thank you very much for correcting it.
Diego

[Leo Etgen]

Hi guys

Here is the loss list entry that Prien has for the incident in question concerning Nowotny on 11 August 1942:

11 August 1942: Bf 109 G-2 "Black 1" (W.Nr. 10 360) flown by Leutnant Walter Nowotny of 3./JG 54, obstacle contact, crash-landing at Rjelbitzi, 50%

The aircraft did not explode as can be seen in the following photographs.



It should be kept in mind that losses below 10% damage were not reported. Regarding the claim that Major Joachim Müncheberg was shot down twice on the Eastern Front while serving with the Geschwaderstab of JG 51 this apparently is based upon a dairy entry made by Feldwebel Günther Schack but there is no documented evidence that this occurred. Concerning the 23 October 1942 incident involving JG 52 only one loss appears in the loss list by Prien:

23 October 1942: Bf 109 G-2 (W.Nr. 13 846) of 4./JG 52, burned by commando squad at Maikop, 100%

It is my personal opinion that primary sources should always be used rather than secondary sources or those based upon recollections or memoirs which can often be faulty. I believe that the majority of researchers would agree with this approach.

Horrido!

Leo

[DiegoZampini]

Leo:
Thank you very much for the pictures and the information
Regarding the event accounted by Schnörrer, it seems to me that he is refering to another incident, which indeed is not documented in JG 54 loss records (Nowotny is not mentioned again, excluding the two cases I mentioned).
I agree with you, Leo, that it is always preferable a primary source, and that veteran's memories can be faulty - it is evident that they can mix up if an event occurred before or after a certain date, or can exaggerate, or plainly to lie.
But in the case of Schnörrer's account, or Ellendt's account of the commando raid against Maikop on 23.10.1942, I tend to believe that they described events which actually took place, but the records of those losses were lost.Why they would fabricate such events, when they meant to admitt more losses than the ones admitted?
I would like to know your oppinion, guys.
Again, thank you very much, Leo
Diego

[Nikita Egorov]

Diego,

Your conclusions are all premature. Besides GQ there are some more German documents on losses that can correct and supply GQ loss list with some extra details. Talking about German and Soviet side one can not be absolutely sure that losses are incomplete or twisted deliberately for one reason, both sides suffered major setbacks, Russians in 1941-42, Germans in 1944-45. Thus, vast ammount of first hand documents were destroyed or disappeared without trace. I wont give a dime in terms of completeness for any research describing the events of 1941 from Soviet side or 1944 from German side...Especially it concerns rapid retreats, encirclements etc. In Stalingrad Soviets examined many planes that were captured on the airfields, some of them are abcent in GQ loss lists because of the impossibility of reporting them and general chaos around.
Please be carefull when you state something, you can be questioned on the credibility of your sources, as per Rasmussen's justified remark.

perhaps you can find in these "accurate" Russian losses 2 SB-2 bombers that had been shot down by Polish fighter in the early afternoon of 17.9.39 by railway station Nadworna? Killed Russians were buried and two were captured wounded and admitted to the hospital. But still no trace could be found in these "accurate" Russian documents.

Robert, have you seen operational documents of the units, that may have been involved, in RGVA?