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Old 15th January 2017, 18:01
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Thumbs up Could the Luftwaffe do SEELÖWE in July 1940

Hi, just read an alternative history novel, Seelöwe, the landing in England on the 21st of July 1940. Lots of senseful information on the planning and surprise landing in July which ist primarily an Luftwaffe op.
There is an Ebook at: https://www.amazon.de/dp/B01N7LIVT9 and also a paperback version.
Reminds me a bit of Tom Clancys Red Storm Rising, comparable style.
I think it falls a bit short, regarding the logistical situation of the Luftwaffe in June and July in France. Would it really have been possible for the Wehrmacht to do this stunt?
What do you think?
Regretfully only in german language, though I hope an english version will follow.
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Old 15th January 2017, 19:56
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Re: Could the Luftwaffe do SEELÖWE in July 1940

I think it falls a bit short, regarding the logistical situation of the Luftwaffe in June and July in France. Would it really have been possible for the Wehrmacht to do this stunt?
From my reading of the deciphered signal traffic for the period (which is a far from complete picture of course) the Luftwaffe was far too busy restoring communications, supplies and serviceability on a mass of new and unfamiliar bases to do more than it actually did in the immediate aftermath of the French capitulation. Also the Kriegsmarine was just about nowhere with assembling the necessary shipping (see the monthly War Diaries of the German Naval Staff Operations Division: https://archive.org/search.php?query...Sorter&page=2). Then the Army had to train troops for amphibious ops — so there were a lot of obstacles for the Wehrmacht to overcome.
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Old 15th January 2017, 21:10
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Re: Could the Luftwaffe do SEELÖWE in July 1940

[quote=Nick Beale;228266]
Quote:
I think it falls a bit short, regarding the logistical situation of the Luftwaffe in June and July in France. Would it really have been possible for the Wehrmacht to do this stunt?[\QUOTE]

From my reading of the deciphered signal traffic for the period (which is a far from complete picture of course) the Luftwaffe was far too busy restoring communications, supplies and serviceability on a mass of new and unfamiliar bases to do more than it actually did in the immediate aftermath of the French capitulation. Also the Kriegsmarine was just about nowhere with assembling the necessary shipping (see the monthly War Diaries of the German Naval Staff Operations Division: https://archive.org/search.php?query...Sorter&page=2). Then the Army had to train troops for amphibious ops — so there were a lot of obstacles for the Wehrmacht to overcome.

Right, but the authors basic strategy is a landing by paras and Ju 52 transported troops on a small perimeter near Folkestone, after the navy is decimated by a fake landing attempt in the nortsea. Thereby the Luftwaffe, supported by Me 109s with extended range with drop tanks, will be able to reach local air superiority. The use of the Luftwaffe is tactical and not as in the real battle strategical with bombing the quite irrelevant London.
The historical strategy of SEALION with a broad landing with insufficient naval ressources would have been impossible to support as you rightly point out!
There is a lot of thought on the actual planning en datail in the book, that seems to be written by someone who knew a real lot of historical and technical details.
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Old 17th January 2017, 17:20
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Re: Could the Luftwaffe do SEELÖWE in July 1940

Well, this is not the classic sealion approach for a landing on a broad front with an insufficient navy and tranport capacity.
His idea is a para landing supported by Ju 52 transported infantry on a small perimeter near Folkestone. The Luftwaffes job is to reach air superiority over this small area.
Then the RN is lured into the northsea by a fake invasion fleet and decimated like in Crete 41.
After that it becomes easier to support and enlarge the first perimeter.
The story gives a lot of insights into the thinking process of the german staff. Hope 2nd part comes soon.
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Old 18th January 2017, 12:47
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Re: Could the Luftwaffe do SEELÖWE in July 1940

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Well, this is not the classic sealion approach for a landing on a broad front with an insufficient navy and tranport capacity.
His idea is a para landing supported by Ju 52 transported infantry on a small perimeter near Folkestone. The Luftwaffes job is to reach air superiority over this small area.
Then the RN is lured into the northsea by a fake invasion fleet and decimated like in Crete 41.
After that it becomes easier to support and enlarge the first perimeter.
The story gives a lot of insights into the thinking process of the german staff. Hope 2nd part comes soon.
I realise that this probably falls outside the remit of an air related forum but does he state how the RN would be decimated? While the RN did indeed suffer losses off the coast of Norway and France in 1940 and off the coast of Crete in 1941 it proved that even under hostile skies it was still able to function. And considering that any invasion fleet, either in the Channel and especially in the North Sea, would have to transit during the hours of darkness it would lose a lot of protection from the Luftwaffe.
The RN already had a fleet situated at Scapa Flow in case of any attempt to cross the North Sea without stripping the south coast bases of their ships/MGB's, and not forgetting the Allied submarines in position to intercept such a force.
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Old 18th January 2017, 22:37
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Re: Could the Luftwaffe do SEELÖWE in July 1940

Decimating the RN:
The concept rests on the assumption, that the RN could not ignore a invasion fleet of about 50 larger freighters coming out of the Kattegatt (which ist an information given by an intelligence deception operation to the english).
Then, give them a treatment of horizontal bombardments to disperse the ships and make them spend ammo, give them a treatment of torpedo bombers supported by Me 110 for flak reduction, then again horizintal bombers, plus stukas etc., all of that in nice Me 109 range and cover, and then some U Boats in deep water on the return trip to scapa. Nice plot!
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Old 19th January 2017, 18:12
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Re: Could the Luftwaffe do SEELÖWE in July 1940

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Decimating the RN: … give them a treatment of torpedo bombers
What torpedo bombers? He 115?
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Old 19th January 2017, 18:55
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Re: Could the Luftwaffe do SEELÖWE in July 1940

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Decimating the RN:
The concept rests on the assumption, that the RN could not ignore a invasion fleet of about 50 larger freighters coming out of the Kattegatt (which ist an information given by an intelligence deception operation to the english).
Then, give them a treatment of horizontal bombardments to disperse the ships and make them spend ammo
What do you mean by horizontal bombardments? Do you mean from warships, in which case what warships as most of the heavies and escorts were sunk or damaged in the invasion of Norway? And something that is always overlooked is that the Captain's of Royal Navy ships had a long traditional streak of taking the fight to the enemy, something that German Naval captains tended to not have in the same quantity - just think of HMS's Jervis Bay and Glowworm, or HMS's Acasta and Ardent to name just 4 from 1939/40.
And not forgetting that those German ships would have to get through a screen of Allied submarines before even getting close to the operational area. From the beginning of April to the end of June 1940 Allied submarines hit over 50 ships - all in the North Sea area - so were a potent force.

A force that large would have to exit through the German minefields and the size of those exits wouldn't allow a force of that size to transit in formation and not forgetting trying to get through the British laid minefields.

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give them a treatment of torpedo bombers supported by Me 110 for flak reduction, then again horizintal bombers, plus stukas etc., all of that in nice Me 109 range and cover, and then some U Boats in deep water on the return trip to scapa. Nice plot!
At night?
And not forgetting that in daylight warships when not tied to escort work and in plenty of sea room are hard to hit when allowed to alter course and speed. And not forgetting that the RAF weren't the only British force with aircraft. They might of been outdated but a force of Fleet Air Arm aircraft from Aircraft Carriers would of been able to put the bombers off their aim as well as strike against the German decoy fleet. That is assuming that the RAF wouldn't of been able to put up a squadron or two but the chances are that they would of done.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 19:36
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Re: Could the Luftwaffe do SEELÖWE in July 1940

Horizontal bombardment means bombardment by horizontal bombers like He 110 or Do 17 ezc, that were available in large numbers. The aim ist to disperse the ships so that they cannot support each other mutually by their AA guns, which were at this time rather decrepit. For comparison, Renown class had at the time three octuple (cumbersome) 2 pounder mounts) and 4 (albeit ineffective) quadruple 0.5 inch MG. So singling the ships out to destroy them piecemeal ist sound tactics.
There is no discussion about the quality of RN Captains, because in this scenario the few german big ships have explicit orders to retreat like cowards to encourage the RN to follow.
Furthermore, the distance from scapa to an area off Jutland is about 600 km one way. You cannot do all of this by night, especially when the fake invasion fleet bids its timing to appear on daylight. And, and this is a big and, the german laid the ambush in this scenario and RN and RAF must react and cannot be comparably prepared. Especially RAF fighters were mainly dislocated in No 11 grop in the south. RN U Boats where a menace, but had the same problems as the german U Boats, that most of the north sea is rather shallow, not a good place for an U boat tom get caught. In this scenario the fake invasion transports are filled with empty barrels to enhance their survival. Makes them hard to sink. And using RN Carrieres with Shagbats against Me 109 does not sound like a particularly sound idea!
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