Gerd Thyben's western victories

[Nokose]

I'm trying to determine how valid Thyben's western claims were while with II/JG 3. I have the following can anyone link the units and aircraft.

10 Oct 43 P-47 15:34 FH, 50 km W of Egmond

30 Nov 43 P-47 11:40 ML-7, Dender-Moende (I believe this was a P-47 from 352 FG (486 FS but not sure which one).

11 Feb 44 P-38 13:07 RK-RL, E. of St. Vith
P-38 13:07 " "
P-38 13:10 " "

Thanks again.

[Nick Hector]

Hi Michael,

Here's what I have:

10th October, 1943. I cannot find reference to a claim by Thyben, but I have found only one P-47 loss:
P-47D-5-RE 42-8635/PE- of 328th FS, 352nd FG. Lt. Fred Olson (KIA after baling out off Lowestoft due to battle damage)
Attributable to Knoke or Fuehrmann?

30th November, 1943.

42-8514/PZ-P of 486th FS, 352nd FG. Lt. David Kramer, seen to bale out but KIA as well

Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.371; http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1942_1.html; http://p-47.database.pagesperso-oran...se/42-8xxx.htm

11th February 1944
I (very tentatively) hazard a guess that his claims were tied in with the 20th FG losses suffered at the hands of JG 26
Includes 77th FS: 42-67726/LC- of Lt. Miles N Keathley POW, 42-67728/LC- of Lt. Joseph O Minton KIA, 42-68036/LC-M of Col. Robert P Montgomery whilst 79th FS lost: 42-67718/MC-C Lt. Donald W Cooper KIA, P-38J-10-LO 42-67821/MC- of Lt. Leonard S Smutko POW (lost over Irsch), 42-67848/MC- of Lt. Melvin H Orr POW and also 42-67850/MC-S of Lt. Myron R Sands also POW, 42-67760/MC- of Lt. Neal J Archer Jr KIA and 42-67981/MC-G "Puddin'" of Lt. Thomas A Hanzo POW
...Bearing in mind that there is a good half hour between Thyben's claims and JG 26's... But in any case these are the only P-38 losses I could find for that date, either 8th AAF or 9th AAF

Hope I have helped somewhat...

In friendship, Nick

[Nokose]

Thanks Nick. I found that Thyben had 5 western victories and since I don't have Prien's JFV 10/I to check had to look at a website for him. It had the 33rd victory on the 10 Oct 43. The location given was Egmond off Holland. The JG 11 victories seem to have taken place over Germany. The "Losses of the U.S. 8th & 9th Air Forces ETO area June 1942 - Dec 1943" states that Olson's P-47 was damaged by a Bf 109 over Holland and lost over the North Sea from damage. So I think it is possibly Thyben's P-47.

The one on the 11 Nov 43 I suspected it was one of the 352 FG but not sure which one.

The P-38 on the 11 Feb 44 I don't have Stan Bishop's next volume to check on the losses. I have Donald Caldwell's "Day Fighters in Defence of the Reich A War Diary, 1942-45" which lists II/JG 3 claiming 4 P-38 (They are not listed on Tony Woods list). It lists 8 P-38 losses from the 20 FG.

[Nick Hector]

Sorry, I should have specified:

The losses details for 11 February 1944 did indeed come from the Bishop and Hey volume relevant for that period and are the only losses of P-38s for that date. It's the time discrepancy between the two German units' claims that causes me to question it at all. We have after all seen instances of multiple victories being claimed in return for few or even no actual losses...

Nick

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi,

I believe that 10 October 1943 should be 8 October 1943, 15:34.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles

[Nokose]

Andrew is that from his logbook for the 8th?

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi Michael,

I got that from a colleague's victory list, which is based on the microfilms and JFV, but I've not checked the original sources myself.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles

[Nokose]

Okay, I pulled up Tony Woods list again and found it mixed in with others for the 8th. Just shows that you have to try and verify what is on the web.

[Leo Etgen]

Hi guys

I just have one minor note: most of the sources that I have seen state that the fighter that Thyben claimed on 30 November 1943 was P-47D-5 (42-8514) "PZ-P" of the 486th FS, 352nd FG, USAAF flown by 2/Lt David Kramer. However, he appears to have evaded capture rather than be killed: http://www.evasioncomete.org/fkramerdc.html I hope this helps.

Horrido!

Leo

[Nokose]

I was looking at the P-47 C-2 from the 56 FG (63 FS) that was lost on the 8th but it has that it was last seen over the Zuider Zee at 16:00 by Lt. Charles Clamp. So Thyben's claim was at 15:34 (Berlin) so did he shoot down his P-47 coming in during the raid or as it was leaving? The 56 FG P-47 was never found and 2nd Lt Dover C. Fleming is listed as MIA. So possibly Clamp was mistaken on who he saw at that time.

Okay, still left in the mystery is his P-38 claims on the 11 Feb 44. If not shot down was there any damaged ones that might have been involved?