Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Post-WW2 Military and Naval Aviation

Post-WW2 Military and Naval Aviation Please use this forum to discuss Military and Naval Aviation after the Second World War.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 28th February 2009, 22:07
FPSOlkor FPSOlkor is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 77
FPSOlkor is on a distinguished road
Might find this interview interesting

http://www.airforce.ru/history/cold_...n/index_en.htm
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 2nd March 2009, 05:14
JoeB JoeB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 121
JoeB
Re: Might find this interview interesting

Very interesting indeed. The compilers and editor of that interview should be congratulated, and thanks for posting it. In case it's of use to them (if they come across it) or anyone else, I'd comment in detail on the appendix about confirmation of Zabelin's victories in Korea, as follows:

First, a general source for US losses in Korea, as many know already, is:
http://www.dtic.mil/dpmo/pmkor/korwald.htm
I'll call it "K". But K can't be entirely relied on to do matching of claims because it doesn't give times usually, and it doesn't discuss the fate of damaged a/c, which some authors seem to assume were 'losses' but that was seldom true. Also a lot of incidents of damage are omitted or on the the wrong days, in contrast to outright loss info which is much more accurate.

March 16, 1952: the loss of 50-668 was definitely the 15th not 16th. It's clear from the 5th AF's Daily Loss Damaged and Abortive A/c File ("Loss Rep") and the a/c's Individual A/c Record Card ("IARC"), so the attribution to weather/operational makes sense: no air combats that day in poor weather. On the 16th there were 8 Soviet credits for F-86's, but no recorded losses.

April 2, 1952: 50-632 listed as Zabelin’s target was damaged April 1 per Loss Rep (served postwar per its IARC). On April 2, 50-592 was lost (1Lt Joe Cannon, rescued), in a combat at 1735I pre the 5th AF Periodic Intelligence Report (“Perintrep”) dated April 3, describing the combats of April 2. 50-602 was hit at 1020I by a 23mm shell causing hydraulic failure so major damage when the nose gear collapsed on landing (returned to service per IARC). Of the 5 Soviet credits this day, two were in the morning, but that of the 494th IAP was recorded at 1640 Beijing (ie. 1740I) and those of the 821st IAP (including Zabelin’s) in the window 1740-1805I, so one of the three probably corresponds to the loss, but there is no way to tell which, with any information I know.

April 6: as the editor says, 5 Soviet F-86 credits, no F-86 losses. 49-1218 suffered major damage from landing gear collapse (served postwar).

April 13: The editor says 2 F-86’s were downed of which one was 50-636, but actually 50-636, piloted by Maj. George Wendling, was the only F-86 lost that day, 1015-1030I, per the Perintrep. Wendling’s loss therefore matches the claim of the 494th IAP recorded at 1018-1025I, whereas Zabelin’s (826th IAP) and the 16th IAP’s claim were both recorded around 0640I. Separate actions with MiG’s around 0640I are mentioned in the Perintrep, and F-86A 49-1316 was damaged (returned to service) in still another combat around 0700I. No victory can be confirmed for Zabelin on this date.

May 17: the editor mentions 6 F-84 credits by the Soviets but I believe there were 7, 6 of them by the 821st IAP but all 7 were at around 0620-0630I. All 4 actual F-84 losses were at around that time (3 outright losses listed in K, and 50-1230’s IARC shows it was written off as a result of combat damage).

May 20: as the editor says, one Soviet credit, one US loss, and moreover Zabelin’s claim was recorded at 1320I and Lane’s loss in a combat starting at 1315I, so this is a pretty certain match.

May 21: The editor says 2 F-86’s were downed but 50-689 (1Lt Charles Kerr, POW) was the only one, in a combat starting at 1315I. The 3 credits of the 821st IAP were all in the period 1315-1330I so they all match, no way to tell who scored the victory.

July 20: Again the editor mentions 2 losses but only, 51-2828 (1st Lt John Ellis, POW) was lost, at 1706. All 4 Soviet credits are in the time range 1712-1725.

So reviewing the 9 credits by date:
March 16: no
April 2: possible, 1 loss w/ 3 closely matching claims, .333 on a pro-rated basis.
April 6 (2 credits): no
April 13: no
May 17: probable, 4 losses, 7 matching claims, .571 pro-rated
May 20: yes, 1 fully confirmed victory
May 21: possible, 1 loss, 3 matching claims, .333 pro-rated
July 20: possible, 1 loss, 4 matching claims, .25 pro-rated.

Max possible score: 5, min possible: 1, pro-rated:~2.5.

The possibility of PLAAF or NK claims or victories is being neglected, but my approximately half complete list of individual Chinese credits doesn’t include any on those particular dates.

Again, that's a very interesting and valuable article.

Joe
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 3rd March 2009, 18:10
FPSOlkor FPSOlkor is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 77
FPSOlkor is on a distinguished road
Re: Might find this interview interesting

Thank's for a review. What if we will include F-84's as misidentified airplanes?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 3rd March 2009, 18:16
FPSOlkor FPSOlkor is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 77
FPSOlkor is on a distinguished road
Re: Might find this interview interesting

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pilo...hvalenskii.htm
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pilots/minin/minin.htm
http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/englis...ikov/index.htm
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 3rd March 2009, 21:44
lingodog lingodog is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Penzance, Cornwall. UK
Posts: 61
lingodog is on a distinguished road
Re: Might find this interview interesting

Most interesting. Thank you for providing the links. Would you know if there are similar interviews about pilot reports on different aircraft types?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 3rd March 2009, 21:54
FPSOlkor FPSOlkor is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 77
FPSOlkor is on a distinguished road
Re: Might find this interview interesting

WWII veterans only, Korea is a "side effect" of my area of interest.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 3rd March 2009, 23:11
JoeB JoeB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 121
JoeB
Re: Might find this interview interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by FPSOlkor View Post
Thank's for a review. What if we will include F-84's as misidentified airplanes?
But there is no evidence of any such cases, in the whole war AFAIK. US and Soviet archival accounts of air combats in Korea match nearly 100% as to what general type of a/c (F-86, single engine straight wing jet, Meteor, single prop, B-29) met approximately where, when and in what rough numbers. I know of no case where there's a Soviet credit for an F-86 without a matching combat between F-86's and MiG's being recorded in US records at the same general time and place. Even in the March 16 and April 6 cases above I abbreviated just saying no F-86 losses but there were combats recorded which match the Soviet credits, just no losses in those combats. Nor were there any combats by F-84 or other straightwing jets with MiG's that match any of Zablelin's credits, except the one v an F-84 according to him. And again this is pretty universal throughout the war: F-80, F-84, F9F, F-94 etc were mistaken for one another frequently but in every case I know F-86's credited to Soviet pilots correspond to specific combats involving F-86's recorded by the US, it's just that the losses don't typically agree very well.

Of course in some cases there are US reports of combats not recorded by the Soviets themselves, but those are explained already or presumably will be eventually, by detailed PLAAF and NK accounts.

Joe
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 25th February 2010, 19:55
FPSOlkor FPSOlkor is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 77
FPSOlkor is on a distinguished road
Re: Might find this interview interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeB View Post
July 20: Again the editor mentions 2 losses but only, 51-2828 (1st Lt John Ellis, POW) was lost, at 1706. All 4 Soviet credits are in the time range 1712-1725.
Found following material while searching through the net.Any comments?
Quote:
According to Operational Summary No.00202 of the 64th IAK Headquarters in Andung, on July 20, 1952 between 1612-1620 hours, Maj. Zebelin's group (256th lAP), flying at an altitude of 7,000 - 13,000 meters over the Uiju/Bikhen region, engaged a total of 24 F-86s in separate groups of four. Maj. Zabelin shot down one F-86E, No. 15/24001, which crashed 12 kilometers southeast of Sinanju. The pilot of the F-86E was killed and the aircraft completely destroyed.

Conclusion: CILHI could not identify an F-86 with the registration number 15/24001. 1Lt. John C. Ellis Jr., for example, who was shot down on July 20, 1952, flew F-86 No. 492828. The Russian side of the USRJC should be asked to clarify this case.

http://www.aiipowmia.com/koreacw/mockbacole01.htm
l
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 4th March 2010, 04:27
JoeB JoeB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 121
JoeB
Re: Might find this interview interesting

The daily summary of 64th IAK (version I have) says Zabelin downed Ellis, by name, but then that's lined through and at the end of the report it says Ellis was pilot of one plane, but pilot of 15/24-00-1 (written that way) was killed, and they were searching for wreckage of a third.

However the wreck report confirming Zabelin's victory says the pilot of the 1524001 (written that way) ejected and was arrested by Korean police, then provides the following wreck evidence:
-a calibration card from an altimeter
-two unknown equipment nameplates both of which have type F-86E but are for some particular part, might have serial number 1524001, not legible enough to say, but that's obviously not a whole USAF a/c's serial number
-photo of wreck sight showing nothing definitive
-a short 'confirmation' report from NK Interior Ministry (Korean original and Russian translation; I'm going from the Korean version) which describes a crash at that location and time, says nothing about a pilot.

In summary there is no evidence that the a/c in the wreck report was other than Ellis' plane 51-2828 (not 49-2828 which was an L-18 observation plane), nor any other tangible Soviet evidence of any other F-86, v multiple forms of then-secret USAF reports saying 51-2828 was the only a/c lost. The final Soviet summary of victories has four in this time window rather than 3 in the daily summary, but two are possible duplicates, with pilot said to be captured same exact time and place in two different entries in the list (no names given in either); one crashed offshore, one wreck site was inaccessible.

And there's really no evidence Zabelin was responsible for the wreck in the report, almost surely 51-2828, rather than one of the other Soviet pilots credited at the same time and place. How could a wreck team, or the original Korean (or PLA) observers on the ground possibly tell who downed a crashed plane among several pilots claiming at the same time and place? So I don't apportion victories based on whose victory was supported by a wreck report v. whose victory was said to crash offshore etc, but prorate by claims v losses which occurred at about the same place and time. Before I said 1/4 for Zabelin in this case; maybe it should be 1/3 due to the conflicting evidence whether 3 or 4 victories were awarded.

Joe
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Amazing what you can find in the ground. markjsheppard Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 12 17th January 2009 19:54
Gunther Rall interview Zachary Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 2 27th September 2007 10:31
Interesting P-38 pilot mystery ... chicoartist Japanese and Allied Air Forces in the Far East 6 21st April 2007 23:42
Any Interesting Air Missions B-4+After D-Day? Wudpecker Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 1 9th January 2007 19:53
How to find ground units on my area? MarcinL Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 19th April 2006 18:36


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:15.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net