John C. Dundas

[CJE]

Hi!
I've been unable to find his actual date of birth.
Can someone help me?
TIA

CJE

[Goos 'TMG' Hageman]

Originally Posted by CJE

Hi!
I've been unable to find his actual date of birth.
Can someone help me?
TIA

CJE

Hello CJE
About John C. Dundas. You probably mean:
/O Hugh Spencer Lisle 'Cocky' Dundas was born in Yorkshire on the 22nd of July 1920 he was the younger brother of J.C.Dundas. He was educated at Stowe public school. He flew with No 616 Spitfire Squadron and No 242 Hurricane Squadron (flew with Douglas Bader) during the Battle of Britain. He was wounded in the arm and leg when he baled out of his Spitfire I (R6926) on the 22nd of August 1940 after combat with a Bf 109 at 19:30hrs.
Later on he flew in Italy.
Hugh (cocky) Dundas was a Wing Commander and Group captain from April 1945 being one of the youngest, at 25, in the war to hold this position.
You may want to look up some of the facts from his book called "Flying Start" by Hugh Dundas (Stanley Paul & Co Ltd an imprint of Century Hutchinson).
On the Fly it states:
31/05/44 Posted to 244 wing,
Wing Leader of 5 squadrons of Spitfires
19/11/44 Promoted to Group Captain of 244 Wing.

Hope this is the Dundas you are looking for.

[Goos 'TMG' Hageman]

Originally Posted by CJE

Hi!
I've been unable to find his actual date of birth.
Can someone help me?
TIA

CJE

Oooops,
CJE
I was to quick with my reply. There was a John C. Dundas, the elder brother of 'Cocky' Dundas. His data.

Born: Thursday August 19, 1915
Died: Thursday 28 November 1940 (killed in action)

John Charles Dundas joined squadron 609 in the summer of 1938 during a period of rapid expansion of all the armed forces. He was academically gifted, starting with a scholarship to Stowe at the age of 12 followed a year later with six credits on his school certificate. A further scholarship was won at the age of 17 to Christchurch, Oxford , culminating in a first in modern history. Aftr this breathtaking achievement, he won an award which took him to the Sorbonne and Heidelberg universities.
John was an aristrocrat, intellectual, athelete, humourist and a journalist on the staff on the Yorkshire Post. He was sent to Czechoslovakia at the time of the Munich crisis in 1938 to report on the international response, as he was regarded as a specialist in foreign affairs. Later he accompanied the then Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain and Lord Halifax, the Foreign Minister of State, to Rome to meet Premiere Benito Mussolini.
Squadron Leader Michael Lister-Robinson spoke of John Dundas as "an excellent pilot, if a little overconfident, and had to be watched". On 27th of November 1940, a report came through to squadron operations that a Ju88 was returning to France, crossing the coast not far from Middle Wallop, where the squadron was based. John immediately asked permission to chase it but was refused. He then asked if he could lead a training flight and permission was agreed. As soon as he was airborne, he peeled off the formation and headed straight for the coast at full boost. He managed to catch up with the Ju88 over the Cherbourg peninsula and finished it off. Alone and almost directly above an airfield well stocked with Me109's, he hightailed it back home. The following day his escapades ended when he lost his life. As befitted his life, his departue was observed by a chorus of staff officers and cadets from Sandhurst. The Squadron diary records:
"Flight Lieutenant Dundas was heard by the Controller (Flight Lieutenant Fieldsend) and by his CO to say over the RT "Whoopee! I've got a 109" to which Robinson was heard to reply "Good show, John" - after which nothing more was seen or heard of Dundas although Robinson tried persistently to talk to him"
Later that day, it is reported that the Luftwaffe High Command appealed to the Air Ministry for infomation about the fate of one of their top three fighter commanders, a Major Helmut Wick. It was soon established that Major Wick was flying the Me109 which had been shot down by Flt Lt Dundas, soon after which the German no2 and no3 destroyed Johns' aircraft, and also shot down his wingman, Plt Off Baillon. Major Helmut Wick, who had claimed the second highest German total (after Adolf Galland) of 56 victories, was John Dundas' thirteenth victim, and he was posthumously awarded a bar to the DFC already won the previous month.

The information you can find, together with a photografph on:
http://www.elliottdundas.freeserve.c..._62.htm#part10

[CJE]

He is THE Dundas I was looking for.
Thanks.

[Graham Boak]

It is better to say that it was soon assumed that Dundas shot down Wick. There have been other suggestions made in recent years, that a more junior pilot was responsible. I'm sorry, I didn't keep any reference to it.

[Christer Bergström]

Originally Posted by Graham Boak

It is better to say that it was soon assumed that Dundas shot down Wick. There have been other suggestions made in recent years, that a more junior pilot was responsible. I'm sorry, I didn't keep any reference to it.

Indeed. This case is subject to a thoroughgoing analyse, covering an entire chapter, in my book "Luftstrid över Kanalen"/"Battle over Britain". (See link below.) Many records and eye-witness accounts from both sides are presented to form a final conclusion. Please allow me to save this until my book is published.

[CJE]

To Goos

A DFC or DSO was NEVER awarded posthumously, unlike the VC.
It's just because it was "gazetted" after his death (actually gazetted on 07.01.41).

[Goos 'TMG' Hageman]

CJE
The article states is was the bar to his DSC that was posthumely awarded, not the DFC. I do not know if your remark on the posthumely awarded DFC also applies to the bar. Well, it is not of great interest, I just quoted the message on the Dundas website. I asume that will not be wrong.
Goos

[Graham Boak]

Perhaps a false assumption. A bar is just the second award of a medal, and the same rules apply. The VC is the only medal which can be awarded posthumously, as far as I am aware. perhaps unfair, but there it is.

[CJE]

Graham,
It's a right assumption, a bar is a second (or even third in some cases) award of a DFM, DFC or DSO.
None of them are awarded posthumously.
It's just a question of time between the award and the publication in the London Gazette.