Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940

[B.F.M. Droog]

Hello Peter,

I understand you're not the CWGC. Why I asked is that I've seen many men listed by the CWGC with a rank one step higher than they have when mentioned by other sources, and rarely the other way round, as in the case of M.F. Peacock.

Regards,

Bart

[Peter Cornwell]

Bart,

Understood. Michael PEACOCK was possibly only 'Acting Squadron Leader' and this rank not substantive on his death.

[Alex Smart]

Hello Peter,

Thank you for the responce.
It was not as a matter of fact, although I do have it, and I now see where the name Heinrich Weiss came from, it was FCL vol 1 and I made a typo error with a 2 instead of a 3.
BUT
I am glad you raised the question on these Hurricane losses because you are correct as even with the 3 in P2437 it is still not a Hurricane serial number.
I got out the books and in "12 Days" P2427 is noted on pages 284 & 297 .
While in FCL vol 1 page 28, P2437 is recorded.
There is NO CORECTION to this in the revised vol 1 recently published on page 29, P2437 is still reported as Burton's Hurricane.
I then looked in L1000 - N9999 and on page 22 for L2141 -213/601-NFT 20.5.1940 in France, is all it has.Nothing of being SoC on the 3rd July 1940.
Then I took a peek in P1000 - R9999 and on page 19 for P2555 all it has is 43/85 - Lost in France 5.40.
For P2427 and P2437 both are recorded on page 18 as Miles Magister's as you rightly reported earlier.
And P3426 on page 30 has only Tangmere - Presumed lost in France 5.40.
I have scanned the pages of both of these books and there is nothing that stands out .

However I would just like to ask firstly if you know how S/L. Peacock got back so fast to his unit as he baled from P2551 the day before. I do not know how far from his base he landed but must have got back pretty quick to be up again the next morning(?) in action ?

And Secondly have you any thoughts as to Burton's Hurricane being P3427 as perhaps at some time the numbers may have been scrambled ? The Air Britain serial book has the same for this a/c as for P3426 except there is no date given.

Or even that P2437 is correct and that it could even be one of the five Hurricanes that were not delivered to the Belgian AF, and that it was an erronious serial that was adopted for this Hurricane ? What are your thoughts on that ?

N2363 is recorded as 43/85-Damaged on landing, 21.4.40 and abandoned 5.40.
Could this be the Hurricane that Sgt. Hampshire was instructed to leave at Metz on the 21st May ?

By the Bye, the website k5083.mistral.co.uk seems to show that in the serial range for P2437 there were 500 a/c ordered from Gloster's. Starting at P2535 which would give us P2537 listed in the Air Britain series as 79 Lost in France 5.40. Could this a/c have gone on to 85 ? No as it was lost with P/O. Appleton KIA on the 14th May 40.

Hope that you can clear this "New" mystery up and let us know the answer.

Thanks Brian for bringing the question up. I think we are all scratching our heads on this now.

Alex

[Peter Cornwell]

Hello Alex,

Thanks for the clarification. To address the points you have raised:

However I would just like to ask firstly if you know how S/L. Peacock got back so fast to his unit as he baled from P2551 the day before. I do not know how far from his base he landed but must have got back pretty quick to be up again the next morning(?) in action ?

It is not recorded exactly how PEACOCK got back to Merville after he came down somewhere ‘east of Lille’ a distance of a little under 20 miles. He either commandeered transport, or telephoned the squadron to send a car to collect him – who knows? Clearly he was back in time to lead the mid-afternoon sortie next day on which he was lost.

And Secondly have you any thoughts as to Burton's Hurricane being P3427 as perhaps at some time the numbers may have been scrambled ? The Air Britain serial book has the same for this a/c as for P3426 except there is no date given.

Good theory - this is plausible. Unfortunately I doubt that we will never know for sure.

Or even that P2437 is correct and that it could even be one of the five Hurricanes that were not delivered to the Belgian AF, and that it was an erronious serial that was adopted for this Hurricane ? What are your thoughts on that ?

You invite my thoughts, so to paraphrase Dowding - Gosh ! This is speculative in the extreme & a shade too fanciful for me I’m afraid. As you accept, P2437 was a Miles Magister.

N2363 is recorded as 43/85-Damaged on landing, 21.4.40 and abandoned 5.40.
Could this be the Hurricane that Sgt. Hampshire was instructed to leave at Metz on the 21st May ?

I’m sorry but I have no idea. Under normal circumstances it would have been passed to an RSU soon after the damage had been assessed as requiring repair ‘off-unit’ and, once airworthy, re-allocated though not necessarily to its original squadron.

By the Bye, the website k5083.mistral.co.uk seems to show that in the serial range for P2437 there were 500 a/c ordered from Gloster's. Starting at P2535 which would give us P2537 listed in the Air Britain series as 79 Lost in France 5.40. Could this a/c have gone on to 85 ? No as it was lost with P/O. Appleton KIA on the 14th May 40.

Sorry but P2537 was NOT the aircraft flown by APPLETON on May 14, 1940. A photograph exists showing it coded NV*K & abandoned fairly intact (though partially stripped) presumably at Merville which No.79 Squadron vacated on May 20, 1940.

[Alex Smart]

Hello Peter,

P2537 was NOT the aircraft flown by APPLETON on May 14, 1940. A photograph exists showing it coded NV*K & abandoned fairly intact (though partially stripped) presumably at Merville

Well you certainly seem to be destroying the information that is given in "Twelve Days in May" by Brian Cull and Bruce Lander with Heinrich Weiss, as well as that given also in Fighter Command Losses volume 1 by Norman R. Franks which is also in the Revised and updated volume recently published.

They have P2537 as the a/c that P/O. L.L. Appleton was killed in and also that it crashed on the 14th May 1940 Shot down in combat by return fire from a Ju88 near Renaix( FCL vol 1 and revised version) while "12 Days in May" has P2537 as the a/c that P/O.L.L.Appleton was killed in Shot down (beleived by return fire from an He111 of II/LG1 or by Bf110 of ZG1 and that it crashed East of Renaix.

You say that they are wrong and that there is photographic proof of the a/c being elsewhere ?

As I personally do not know how far Renaix is from Merville is it not possible that between the 14th and 20th the a/c could have been removed to Merville ?

Please if possible could you put the photo up on this forum for us to see, thank you.

This all leaves us with yet more Question's now as we have now to assertain which aircraft P/O.Appleton was flying when he met his death, besides those mentioned in earlier replies here.

So to start with may I ask you what your information is based on and where is it from ?

Thanks
Alex

[VtwinVince]

My uncle, Hauptmann Dr. Albrecht Ochs, was almost certainly involved in this combat, although he did not claim in this action, whilst with 4. JG 3.

[Peter Cornwell]

Alex,

Well you certainly seem to be destroying the information that is given in "Twelve Days in May" by Brian Cull and Bruce Lander with Heinrich Weiss, as well as that given also in Fighter Command Losses volume 1 by Norman R. Franks which is also in the Revised and updated volume recently published. They have P2537 as the a/c that P/O. L.L. Appleton was killed in and also that it crashed on the 14th May 1940 Shot down in combat by return fire from a Ju88 near Renaix( FCL vol 1 and revised version) while "12 Days in May" has P2537 as the a/c that P/O.L.L.Appleton was killed in Shot down (beleived by return fire from an He111 of II/LG1 or by Bf110 of ZG1 and that it crashed East of Renaix.

That was not my intention. However, I am well aware that (not for the first time) my research has led me to reach different conclusions to previously published accounts.

You say that they are wrong and that there is photographic proof of the a/c being elsewhere ?

No, I simply document what I believe to be the facts of the matter & trust readers to form their own conclusions. The photograph is attached.

As I personally do not know how far Renaix is from Merville is it not possible that between the 14th and 20th the a/c could have been removed to Merville ?

Hardly. The aircraft flown by APPLETON was clearly subject of a terminal velocity crash and, as I said, P2537 was photographed fairly intact.

Please if possible could you put the photo up on this forum for us to see, thank you.

It is not mine to share. However, purely in the interests of trying to accommodate you & close this debate, I am posting the image as it appeared when the photo was offered for auction on eBay & thus came into the public domain.

This all leaves us with yet more Question's now as we have now to assertain which aircraft P/O.Appleton was flying when he met his death, besides those mentioned in earlier replies here. So to start with may I ask you what your information is based on and where is it from ?

As I have published in The Battle of France Then & Now (p268) I believe that P2635 was the aircraft flown by APPLETON when lost on May 14, 1940. There is no Holy Grail - my information is based upon years of personal research of surviving contemporary documentation & subjective analysis of RAF serials. But as P2537 is evidently incorrect perhaps it is fitting that your question is equally directed to those who suggest it was so ?

[Alex Smart]

Hello Peter,

Many thanks for showing the photo, I recal that I have seen this one before I think on the LEMB old site, perhaps it is still shown on the new one ? Looks like the port side of the a/c is pretty badly wrecked .

All the very best , keep us informed please - even by PM if you prefere.
Alex

[Brian]

Hi Alex/Peter

Peter - you are aware that Heinrich passed away a few years ago and is therefore unable to respond to the final sentence of Post N.17. Perhaps it was a fact at the time!

Brian

[Peter Cornwell]

Hello Brian,

Yes, I am aware that Heinrich WEISS is no longer with us though, fortunately, his archive survives thanks to Larry Hickey. I've no personal axe to grind & little interest in what was published back in 1995 -research has moved on. But, accepting the notion of cabinet responsibility, I felt that Alex's question could equally well be directed elsewhere. I'm quite sure that Heinrich WEISS was sincere in his belief that P2537 was APPLETON's aircraft, but clearly this was not so.