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  #131  
Old 6th February 2014, 14:47
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

Good idea, but I am afraid I cannot add much more to the topic unless I know more dates and AC types to check for Hartmann over Hungary. Thanks,

Gabor
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  #132  
Old 7th February 2014, 07:39
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

Perfectly understandable. Would you be willing to share more info on Lipfert's claims with the board? Now that we know how inaccurate Hartmann's claims truly were, it would be fascinating to see how accurate Lipfert was, especially for those of us who have read his war diary.
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  #133  
Old 7th February 2014, 09:28
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

No problem. Lipfert eg. downed 2 IL-2s on March 20, 1945 while being 'drunk'. It was not his fault, he got an alarmstart while celebrating. Anyway, with reduced fear he downed 2 IL-2s from the waves of the 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP in the Lake Balaton-NE area in Hungary. Overall he mainly battled the 17 VA, not the 5th.

Victories: No.190 at 15:33 and No.191 at 15:41. (Reported locations are not accurate.) Victims:

17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP, Ilyushin IL-2m3, S/N: 11082, Mikulin AM-38F engine: S/N. 252688 from Plant 1., Kuybishev, Russia. Tactical No.: White '8'. Crew: ml.l-t Petr Alekseevich Taranovich pilot and st.s-t Victor Konstantinovich Ogarkov gunner, injured. Crashed at Gϊttamαsi-NW.

17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP, Ilyushin IL-2m3, S/N: 1871797, Mikulin AM-38F engine: S/N. 257374 from Plant 18., also Kuybishev, Russia. Tactical No.: White '23'. Crew: Aleksei Dmitrievich Belyashin pilot KIA and s-t Phillip Fomich Verbitski gunner KIA. They crashed in the swampy lake near Φskό. Their plane has been partially recovered.

See small samples from the dozens of detailed documentation pages of 136 ShAD and 210 ShAP. (1945 journal) See also portrait of Belyashin (+) and the crash site during the recovery. Soviet documentation, or "MACR" :-))) sometimes attached even visual draft of the dogfight, see Belyashin's loss with the attack of Bf 109s and 'Fw 190's at Φskό.

Gabor

PS: guys, I am sorry, but I must be very brief in the future as this case is ONLY a brief sample to show you what soviet records hold. As I am a supporter of an Aviation Museum, I have certain limits of sharing our stuff, even if we have all of the details. Thanks for understanding.

Last edited by HGabor; 20th June 2018 at 18:18.
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  #134  
Old 7th February 2014, 12:37
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

Hi Guys

If you drop me a personal e.mail I'll send you my lists of top aces. Dόttmann's has the best details i.e crash-sites throughtout, Barkhorn's, Hartmann's lake times/places for 1945. I always thought that Woidich's eighty-two looked honest, same with Rall, Robert Weiss, Borchers and Trenkel.

I did find 362 claims by pilots for 5th July 1943(Kursk), think that flak takes it up to the often quoted figure of 480, is won't help with individuals, but knowing the losses would indicate the extent of the overclaiming!

Regards

Johannes

P.S Lipfert's honesty enforces my belief that you can usually tell a fraudster by the pattern of his claiming....always thought he was one of the good guys.
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  #135  
Old 7th February 2014, 13:34
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Juha Juha is offline
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

Thanks a lot Gabor
really interesting info!

Juha
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  #136  
Old 7th February 2014, 13:36
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

And more generally, how about Barkhorn? At lest during the war he was thought to be very reliable claimer.

Juha
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  #137  
Old 7th February 2014, 14:12
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

You are welcome! Honestly, in the past I did not focus on matching opponents to each other, I just started to check them as I saw that so many colleagues are interested in it. Plus it would not hurt to point out the false claims once and for all.

Now I started to go through Lipfert's claims and the soviet losses, please be patient, it takes some time. :-)

Gabor
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  #138  
Old 7th February 2014, 14:19
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

Well Gabor, you certainly have a captive audience...

Johannes, do you have Duettmann et al's claims linked to actual Soviet losses?

Nick
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  #139  
Old 7th February 2014, 15:52
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

Folks,

This is so far. As you see, Lipfert is not even on the same page with Hartmann... I am sure Lipfert IN REAL(!) downed a lot more planes than Hartmann... Compared to Lipfert, now I cannot take Hartmann's claims seriously. I think many books should be re-written, Wikipedia updated, etc.... Keep working...


No.: …. Reported AC: …. Date: ………. Real victim:

146 …. Yak-11 …. 17.10.44. ………. Yak-1B, 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 73 GvIAP, l-t Malyavin KIA
147 …. La-5 …. 21.10.44. ………. La-5F, 5 VA, 279 IAD, 192 IAP, ml.l-t Sukovyants, OK
148 …. IL-2 …. 23.10.44. ………. IL-2, 5 VA, 7 GvShAD, 131 GvShAP, Kralkin killed - Babailov killed
149 …. IL-2 …. 23.10.44. ………. IL-2, 5 VA, 7 GvShAD, 131 GvShAP, Lapinski POW - Filippov MIA
150 …. Yak-7 …. 24.10.44. ………. Yak-9T, 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, gv.ml.l-t Sisko, POW
151 …. IL-2 …. 27.10.44. ………. Unsure, probably one of 5 VA, 207 ORAP IL-2KR losses
152 …. Yak-7 …. 27.10.44. ………. Found no such permanent loss, - probably damaged
153 …. Yak-9 …. 13.11.44. ………. Yak-1B, 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 149 GvIAP, Stepanov, pilot returned, plane repaired and returned in service
154 …. Yak-11 …. 16.11.44. ………. Yak-1B, 5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Capt. Artemev KIA
155 …. IL-2 …. 17.11.44. ………. IL-2, 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 90 GvShAP, Kurilov KIA - Ananev
156 …. IL-2 …. 17.11.44. ………. IL-2, 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 90 GvShAP, Ivlev WIA - Petrunin WIA
157 …. Yak-7 …. 17.11.44. ………. Yak-1B, 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 151 GvIAP, gv.ml.l-t Noskov, MIA
158 …. Yak-9 …. 23.11.44. ………. Yak-1B, 5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP, Kuyanov, KIA


(Sorry about formatting. Please note: my comment is only for Hungary. I have only very limited records for other countries, mainly for 1945.)
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  #140  
Old 7th February 2014, 18:40
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

Finally: Lipfert's claims for Hungary.

No.: …. Reported AC: …. Date: ………. Real victim:

146 …. Yak-11 …. 17.10.44. ………. Yak-1B, 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 73 GvIAP, l-t Malyavin KIA
147 …. ….La-5 …. 21.10.44. ………. La-5F, 5 VA, 279 IAD, 192 IAP, ml.l-t Sukovyants, OK
148 …. …..IL-2 …. 23.10.44. ………. IL-2, 5 VA, 131 GvShAP, Kralkin killed - Babailov killed
149 …. …..IL-2 …. 23.10.44. ………. IL-2, 5 VA, 131 GvShAP, Lapinski POW - Filippov MIA
150 …. ..Yak-7 …. 24.10.44. ………. Yak-9T, 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, gv.ml.l-t Sisko, POW
151 …. …..IL-2 …. 27.10.44. ………. Unsure, probably one of 5 VA, 207 OKRAP IL-2KR losses
152 …. ..Yak-7 …. 27.10.44. ………. Found no such permanent loss, - probably damaged
153 …. ..Yak-9 …. 13.11.44. ………. Yak-1B, 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 149 GvIAP, Stepanov, pilot returned, plane repaired and returned in service
154 …. Yak-11 …. 16.11.44. ………. Yak-1B, 5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Capt. Artemev KIA
155 …. …..IL-2 …. 17.11.44. ………. IL-2, 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 90 GvShAP, Kurilov KIA - Ananev
156 …. …..IL-2 …. 17.11.44. ………. IL-2, 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 90 GvShAP, Ivlev WIA - Petrunin WIA
157 …. ..Yak-7 …. 17.11.44. ………. Yak-1B, 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 151 GvIAP, gv.ml.l-t Noskov, MIA
158 …. ..Yak-9 …. 23.11.44. ………. Yak-1B, 5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP, Kuyanov, KIA
159 …. ..Yak-9 …. 05.12.44. ………. Yak-9T, 5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, ml.l-t Erko, MIA
160 …. …..IL-2 …. 09.12.44. ………. IL-2, 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 989 ShAP, ml.l-t Veretelnikov MIA - Bezroukov ml.s-t
161 …. ...Pe-2 …. 11.12.44. ………. Pe-2, 17 VA, 39 ORAP, Elohov-Uhvatov-Tisenko, all KIA in Lake Balaton at Balatonkenese
162 …. …..IL-2 …. 22.12.44. ………. IL-2, probably 17 VA, 189 ShAD - looks a real victory, but unsure which one, too many losses
163 …. ..Yak-9 …. 23.12.44. ………. Probably Yak-9D, 17 VA, 288 IAD, 659 IAP, st.l-t Salamatov - but crashlanded on airfield after dogfight with Bf 109 at Lake Balaton-E
164 …. …..IL-2 …. 24.12.44. ………. Unsure, perhaps 17 VA, 189 ShAD
165 …. ..Yak-9 …. 25.12.44. ………. Yak-9T or Yak-1B, real 17 VA, 288 IAD, 611 IAP victory, but unsure which one,- too many options
166 …. ..Yak-9 …. 25.12.44. ………. Yak-9T or Yak-1B, real 17 VA, 288 IAD, 611 IAP victory, but unsure which one,- too many options
167 …. ….La-5 …. 02.01.45. ………. La-5, 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP, ml.l-t Roi, OK
168 …. ..Yak-9 …. 02.01.45. ………. Yak-9T, 17 VA, 288 IAD, 611 IAP, ml.l-t Dimov, KIA
169 …. …..IL-2 …. 04.01.45. ………. IL-2, real 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP victory, but unsure which one,- too many options
170 …. …..IL-2 …. 04.01.45. ………. IL-2, real 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP victory, but unsure which one,- too many options
171 …. ..Yak-9 …. 04.01.45. ………. Yak-9D, 17 VA, 288 IAD, 897 IAP, ml.l-t Konovalov, WIA at Bicske
172 …. ….La-5 …. 04.01.45. ………. La-5FN, 17 VA, 194 IAD, 530 IAP, ml.l-t Suhorukhov KIA
173 …. Boston …. 08.01.45. ………. A-20B-DL, 17 VA, 244 BAD, 449 BAP, Vetlov-Ionov-Tolmatski-Burtsev, all KIA
174 …. Boston …. 08.01.45. ………. A-20G-40-DO, 17 VA, 244 BAD, 449 BAP, Kruglov-Kudryavtsev-Sikov-Shestakov, all KIA
175 …. ..Yak-3 …. 14.01.45. ………. Yak-9D, 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 31 GvIAP, gv.ml.l-t Bezuglii, WIA
176 …. ..Yak-3 …. 14.01.45. ………. Found no such permanent loss, - probably damaged. (For another loss the time does not match here)
177 …. ….La-5 …. 16.01.45. ………. Probably damaged. 2 La-5s lost, but 12:17 is too early, those were late afternoon
178 …. ….La-5 …. 22.01.45. ………. La-5F, or La-5FN, a real 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 or 164 IAP victory, but unsure which one
179 …. …..IL-2 …. 27.01.45. ………. IL-2, 17 VA, 306 ShAD, 951 ShAP, l-t Filonovich KIA - Abrosimov MIA
180 …. ….La-5 …. 22.02.45. ………. La-7, 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 179 GvIAP, gv.ml.l-t Pinko WIA
181 …. ..Yak-3 …. 22.02.45. ………. Found no such permanent loss, - probably damaged
182 …. ..Yak-9 …. 25.02.45. ………. Yak-9T or Yak-9M, a real 5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP victory but unsure which one
183 …. …..IL-2 …. 08.03.45. ………. No exact match, many losses reported due to flak, this can easily be one of them, if so: 17 VA, 136 or 189 ShAD
184 …. ..Yak-3 …. 11.03.45. ………. Yak-9M, 17 VA, 288 IAD, 611 IAP, l-t Kutsenko KIA
185 …. ..Yak-3 …. 11.03.45. ………. Found no such permanent loss, - probably damaged, or crashlanded on airfield
186 …. ..Yak-7 …. 13.03.45. ………. Yak-9M, probably 17 VA, 288 IAD, 866 IAP, l-t Kamenetskii OK
187 …. ….La-5 …. 14.03.45. ………. La-5FN, 17 VA, 295 IAD, 164 IAP, ml.l-t Iozhitskii, POW
188 …. …..IL-2 …. 14.03.45. ………. IL-2, probably 17 VA, 306 ShAD, 672 ShAP, l-t Mamontov KIA, - s-t Kovalev KIA
189 …. …..IL-2 …. 17.03.45. ………. IL-2, 17 VA, 189 ShAD, 615 ShAP, Capt. Nikitin OK, gv.s-t Apalkov OK
190 …. …..IL-2 …. 20.03.45. ………. IL-2, 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP, ml.l-t Taranovich - Ogarkov WIA
191 …. …..IL-2 …. 20.03.45. ………. IL-2, 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP, ml.l-t Belyashin KIA - Verbitskii KIA
192 …. ….La-5 …. 21.03.45. ………. La-5FN, 17 VA, 194 IAD, 848 IAP, st.l-t Vasilev, KIA - in Lake Balaton
193 …. Yak-5? …. 21.03.45. ………. Yak-5?????? Dunno this….

Some cases are still not clear, but most of them is in place. His accuracy is amazing, he was one of the best and most honest German fighter pilots in WWII. Let us remember him as well as his victims, who paid the Ultimate Sacrifice in WWII.

Gabor
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