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  #21  
Old 1st July 2009, 22:13
RodM RodM is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Aircraft Loss Reports?

Hi Larry,

thanks for the wonderful and important description of what was in the original captured cache of records, and I can add a few snippets regarding this collection.

I have seen reference in RAF Missing Research and Enquiry Service correspondence that the documents were found in a cellar.

The reference to the microfilm is very interesting. Read on...

The actual folders of textural documents etc relate to files of Dulag-Luft or Auswertungsstelle West, for the 'KU'/'J'/'KE' etc prefix and numerical reference was added by them.

As to the microfilms, among the records in the UK, are photoprints presumably from these films that have made it into The National Archives, within the RAF Special Investigation Branch files (see AIR 40/2294-2312). They relate to typed German-language interrogation reports (which, in relation to the reports relating to British aircraft at least, carry the prefix 'VE') that could be thought of as similar to the ADI(K) interrogation reports. There are also English-Language translation of many of these reports in the Special Investigation Branch files, but I don't know if these relate to or derive from the English-Language translations mentioned in the original cache. I've attached a sample of one of the translated interrogation reports and of a photoprint from these files. It would be interesting to know where the interrogation reports for American PoWs are...

Also, significant portion of the reports in the NARA holding, including everything from 1939 to around 1942, are not the Dulag-Luft/ Auswertungsstelle West files but photoprints of crash reports for Luftgaukommando XI. I was informed by NARA that the British supplied the Americans with duplicates of the original microfilms for the Luftgaukommando XI. material, and that photoprints were made by the Americans from the fims. These account for the six-digit references in the RG 92 microfiche index, for that number relates to the microfilm frame number. Note that there are over 30,000 individual frames. I'd thought that this material had been captured seperately from the Dulag-Luft/ Auswertungsstelle West material (i.e. it was part of the Luftgaukommando XI. archives).

The interrogation reports and Luftgaukommando XI. reports may account for some or all of the 17 microfilm reels mentioned in the original cache. Where are the original microfilms? That's anyones guess! I would suspect that they are still under lock and key in the UK. Does NARA still hold the 17 reels mentioned?

The RG 92 index on micofiche derives from a post-war document and presumably was prepared in the US as an aid to organising and working with the reports they received. This explains why there are many mis-spelt place names and why so few of the 10,300+ KE files are not indexed (for they reside with the British).

Anyway, I hope that this adds a little to our overall knowledge.

Cheers

Rod

Last edited by RodM; 15th February 2010 at 00:47.
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  #22  
Old 2nd July 2009, 01:12
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Aircraft Loss Reports?

Hi Rod,

Again, you have provided a super tanker full of previously unknown detail on this collection!

I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis and hypothesis concerning the microfilm rolls. I knew that 17 reels of 35mm film would contain far too many frames for just 17 microfiche sheets, and concluded that they must include other material, too. But I had no clue what they might be until you revealed that the RAF had been busy microfilming parts of the overall collection.

Also, it appears from your description that the total collection was far larger and more encompassing than I had previously thought. I remember seeing postwar papers and correspondence on the collection at Suitland but I did not pay much attention or attempt to read through them at the time because I was focused on other things. But I have vague recollections that the collection was originally in the hands of the post hostilities intelligence teams who, realizing what they had, quickly turned it over to the graves registration command echelons.

I think a researcher with the motivation and time could turn this into a good book that describes the collection's German origins, how it was found in the ruins of the Reich, how it was exploited by the intelligence and graves people after being divided among the four allies, and how in lay dormant for many years before enthusiasts began showing a renewed interest in it.

Thanks again, Rod.

Larry
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  #23  
Old 2nd July 2009, 04:12
Rabe Anton Rabe Anton is offline
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Rabe Anton
Re: Luftwaffe Aircraft Loss Reports?

The following notes relate to RodM's and others comments, above. During my tenure as an Air Force reference archivist at the AFHRA, I had access to, and sometimes consulted, the 17-fiche long list of crashed Allied aircraft in the West that RodM refers to. In my opinion, these 17 microfiche are worth purchasing if one is specializing in research on Allied losses in the West. As stated above, however, the "loss list" is (a) incomplete, and (b) often marred by spelling errors. But overall, it's a valuable resource for those seeking enlightenment about losses of the Western Allies, not least because of its convenient chronological arrangment.


NARA RG 92 - MISSING AIR CREW REPORTS
AIR CRASHES BY DATE

At the end of the National Archives RG 92 series of Missing Air Crew Reports (MACRs) on microfiche there are seventeen (17) additional fiche which may be highly useful to research in RAF and USAAF aircraft losses during World War II. These fiche list RAF and USAAF aircraft lost arranged chronologically by date of loss. Reading across the page, information given in columns is:

1) Day, month, year of loss
2) Time of day
3) Type of aircraft
4) Aircraft identification and/or markings
5) Exact place of loss, e.g., "3 km. east of Platon [Belgium]"
6) Reference to files (KU series and others), at least some of which are
now in the U.S. National Archives.

The lists are apparently incomplete, but by using them, one can identify at least some crashed RAF and USAAF aircraft by day date and exact location of the crash, then obtain the captured German loss records from the National Archives. From there, to the MACR, or such British records as may be available!

Fiche No. 5970 - 4 Sep. 1939-31 Dec. 1942
5971/01 - 3 Jan. 1943-31 Dec. 1943
5971/02 - 3 Jan. 1943-31 Dec. 1943 (seven images only)
5972 - 1 Jan. 1944-29 Feb. 1944
5973 - March 1944
5974 - April 1944
5975 - May 1944
5976 - June 1944
5977 - July 1944
5978 - August 1944
5979 - September 1944
5980 - October 1944
5981 - November 1944
5982 - December 1944
5983 - Jan. 1945-Mar. 1945
5984 - Additional German records on aircraft from 30 Dec. 1943-June 1944
5985 - RAF Bomber Command battle casualty report listed alphabetically by organization for January 1945 (17 pages or images only). Gives names of RAF BC casualties by unit. Jan. 45 only.

As of 1 October 2002: Each fiche $4.25 US. Minimum mail order $6.00 US. Pay to: National Archives Trust Fund. Order from:
National Archives and Records Administration
Archives II - College Park
Attn: Modern Military Records (NWCTM)
8601 Adelphi Road
College Park, MD 20740-6001

I hope the above information proves helpful to someone.

Rabe Anton

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  #24  
Old 2nd July 2009, 05:41
RodM RodM is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Aircraft Loss Reports?

Hi Larry and Rabe,

thanks for the additional info.

Among the problems are trying to discover the source of the documents (for the collection may or may not have been the accumulation of documents captured from various sources at differing locations), the exact extent and scope of the documentation, and exactly what and how much was distributed to whom.

As previously mentioned, the documentation still in British hands largely remains classified, and the MoD has been keeping pretty mum on the subject. The RAF AHB have stated that the actual surviving Luftgaukommando crash reports are probably incorporated within the individual MRES Casualty Investigation files, while the reports that could not be linked to a specific loss have reputedly been destroyed. As to the interrogation reports (a) I don't know what percentage the reports found in AIR 40 at TNA constitute of the total captured reports, or (b) where the reports relating to American PoWs are and whether they still classified.

As an addition to Rabe's comments on the microfiche, the subscription website Footnote.com, which is contracted to digitise a lot of NARA records, has available all the individual pages of the index in JPEG form, along with all the MACR reports.

Cheers

Rod
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  #25  
Old 2nd July 2009, 05:52
Revi16 Revi16 is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Aircraft Loss Reports?

I've spent the last few days at the Archives using this reference,

Fiche No. 5970 - 4 Sep. 1939-31 Dec. 1942
5971/01 - 3 Jan. 1943-31 Dec. 1943
5971/02 - 3 Jan. 1943-31 Dec. 1943 (seven images only)
5972 - 1 Jan. 1944-29 Feb. 1944
5973 - March 1944
5974 - April 1944
5975 - May 1944
5976 - June 1944
5977 - July 1944
5978 - August 1944
5979 - September 1944
5980 - October 1944
5981 - November 1944
5982 - December 1944
5983 - Jan. 1945-Mar. 1945
5984 - Additional German records on aircraft from 30 Dec. 1943-June 1944
5985 - RAF Bomber Command battle casualty report listed alphabetically by organization for January 1945 (17 pages or images only). Gives names of RAF BC casualties by unit. Jan. 45 only.

While the above fiche list the British losses and assigns them a 6 digit number, there are no British reports at NARA.
I have spent a little time looking thru the AV, KU, ME, J, etc. reports and have only found reports dealing with American aircraft or American Airmen.

If I can help you with items from NARA or NASM feel free to contact me.
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=15094

Regards,
Mike
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  #26  
Old 2nd July 2009, 07:05
RodM RodM is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Aircraft Loss Reports?

Hi Mike,

as previously mentioned the six-figure digit references relate to reports from Luftgaukommando XI. for both American and British losses.

NARA does hold photoprints of these; I have obtained copies of a few hundred of pages (majority relating to RAF losses) from NARA in the past = attached is a sample, frame number 131229 (to correct my earlier post, the captured films may not contain 30,000+ frames but 130,000+ frames).

Of the RAF-related KE/J files, these are in British hands, but I have found a very small number of original KE reports misfiled on KU/J files at NARA.

Mike, have you looked at the last fiche for RAF BC losses in Jan 1945? Do the documents appear to be of German or British origin? Are there any reference numbers listed (I ask because the RAF Missing Research and Enquiry Service appear to have used a master index of losses during their invesigations, but I don't know if this list has been made public in the UK)?

Rabe, I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments on the stealing of artifacts and documents from the files. As to the microfilms, I'm not so sure that this microfilming was done post-war by the British. The microfilms may have been of German origin and captured in that format.

Cheers

Rod

Last edited by RodM; 15th February 2010 at 00:47.
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  #27  
Old 2nd July 2009, 13:01
mhuxt mhuxt is offline
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mhuxt
Re: Luftwaffe Aircraft Loss Reports?

Sweet Cheezus Rod, that photoprint is of the Mosquito losses on Clarion!


"Tell your master, that if he will give us food and shelter for the night, he may join us on our quest for the Holy Grail."

"Ah, well ah'll ask 'im, but I don' think 'e'll be ver' keen. "E's already got one, you know."


(Wouldn't have a higher-res version, would you?)
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  #28  
Old 3rd July 2009, 12:34
Revi16 Revi16 is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Aircraft Loss Reports?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RodM View Post
Hi Mike,

as previously mentioned the six-figure digit references relate to reports from Luftgaukommando XI. for both American and British losses.

NARA does hold photoprints of these; I have obtained copies of a few hundred of pages (majority relating to RAF losses) from NARA in the past = attached is a sample, frame number 131229 (to correct my earlier post, the captured films may not contain 30,000+ frames but 130,000+ frames).

Of the RAF-related KE/J files, these are in British hands, but I have found a very small number of original KE reports misfiled on KU/J files at NARA.

Mike, have you looked at the last fiche for RAF BC losses in Jan 1945? Do the documents appear to be of German or British origin? Are there any reference numbers listed (I ask because the RAF Missing Research and Enquiry Service appear to have used a master index of losses during their invesigations, but I don't know if this list has been made public in the UK)?

Rabe, I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments on the stealing of artifacts and documents from the files. As to the microfilms, I'm not so sure that this microfilming was done post-war by the British. The microfilms may have been of German origin and captured in that format.

Cheers

Rod
Hi Rod,

Perhaps you could point me in the right direction then, as no Archivists have been able to find or show me any 6 digit reports.

Do you know which Record Group, microfilm # or fiche # these are kept on?

Or are you referring to the British Reports from Jan. 45 only, fiche 5985?

Regards,
Mike
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  #29  
Old 3rd July 2009, 14:57
RodM RodM is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Aircraft Loss Reports?

Hi Mike,

firstly, the photo prints with the six-digit frame number references are in RG 242 and should be a part of the collection of Luftgau reports.

I originally obtained around 60-70 pages of A3 copy from these photo prints (two photo prints to an A3 page) via a mail enquiry several years ago. The male NARA archivist involved with the enquiry/order ('sorry, I don't recall his name) informed me that (a) the photo prints were made from microfilm provided by the British, and (b) that he didn't know of the current whereabouts of these films. He also asked that I stop ordering large numbers of photocopies from these photo prints (if I remember correctly, under the pretext that the handling of prints could damage them).

A couple of years later I hired a researcher to photograph the remaining photo prints that I required, and they dealt with the same archivist who handled my original copy order. The researcher was able to go through the original photo prints and photograph all of what I requested.

I should state that I can only assume that at least at that time they held an entire set of photo prints, for the 250-odd frames that I eventually obtained in copy were all from a very select period, and no frames were missing from the lots I obtained.

Unfortunately I no longer have the order sheet, which would provide the exact file reference.

Yes, I do mean fiche 5985 (I see that I actually do have this fiche, I thought that I didn't). Please note that the fiche does not relate to RAF Bomber Command but to the 21st Bomber Command USAAF.

Mark, yes the photo print does relate to the 2TAF Mosquito operations and losses from Clarion on 22 February 1945. The RAF Special Branch files in AIR 40 at TNA also contain a number of translated interrogation reports from captured aircrew from Mosquitoes lost during the operation.

Cheers

Rod

Last edited by RodM; 3rd July 2009 at 15:51.
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  #30  
Old 4th July 2009, 09:29
mhuxt mhuxt is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Aircraft Loss Reports?

Thanks Rod.

You wouldn't happen to have a higher-rez version would you? I'm trying to sharpen up the print as posted, but some of the info is still only tantalisingly close to legibility.

Cheers,

Mark
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