2 unidentified axis losses, Kent?

[uckwash]

Found these in 'Aircraft Casualties in Kent'-:

A)6.9.40
????Kent. HE111 FTR after attack on London.
(Location not known).
Lt Schactebeck killed. Fw Jessen, Uffz Haslache, Fasz & Jahme missing. Based Morbecke.

B)15.8.40
Brenchley, Castle Hill. e/a

Since the book was published has anything transpired that would shed any further light upon these 'odd' (adendum) reports?

Dave

[Peter Cornwell]

Dave,

Why this has been documented as a casualty in Kent I cannot imagine but at least the date of loss, September 6, 1940, is correct:

2./KG26 Heinkel He111H-3 (6902). Crashed in the North Sea during night sortie to London, exact circumstances unknown. FF Lt Gerhard Schachtebeck killed, BO Uffz Karl-Heinz Fass, BM Uffz Otto Ihme, HS Gefr Josef Haslacher, and BF Fw Werner Jessen (of 1./KG26) all missing. Aircraft 1H+AK 100% write-off.

I know of no enemy aircraft down in the area of Castle Hill, east of Brenchley, on August 15, 1940. What is the source for this ? Kindly ignore my question if it is the ‘Casualties in Kent’ book you still insist on quoting. I would strongly recommend that you file that book or, at least, check it against better information before posting. I’ve no idea when it was published but it is clearly totally unreliable.

[Clint Mitchell]

Hi Peter
Whilst we are on the imprecise reports in the Aircraft Casualties in Kent book. Would you be able to shed any light on the following?

18.8.40 Chatham e/a
25.8.40 Southfleet - Dartford e/a
31.8.40 Rochester, Strood. e/a
30.9.40 Higham. e/a
2.11.40 Northfleet. Downs Road. 3 crew killed. JU88A-1

The book: Aircraft Casualties in Kent Part I: 1939 to 1940, Compiled by G.G. Baxter, K.A. Owen and P. Baldock, Kent Aviation Historical Research Society - Meresborough Books 1990 - ISBN 0948193 506
It's a locally (Rainham, Kent) produced book that contains lots of tantilising if some what incomplete/incorrect reports? I just want to know if they are correct

Any info appreciated

Thanks

Clint

[steve sheridan]

Peter sorry to bother you,
are you saying just Jessen was from 1/KG26, or the whole crew?

Best regs,
Steve.

[Andy Saunders]

I have to agree with Peter Cornwell in relation to the "Aircraft Casualties In Kent" book. When it appeared in print I bought a copy. It didn't stay in my book collection for very long!!

[Clint Mitchell]

Thing is the book kind of gets your hopes up as it lists several aircraft downed in my area not mentioned anywhere else. Also you wonder where they got their info. I mean they could have asked around the local areas, local eye witness reports. There are a lot of reports in the Battle of Britain Then & Now that do not give a location. Many of those must have crashed in the sea with no witnesses but some on land might have not been recorded or records lost. For instance I have an eye witness report of a HE111 coming down near Higham, Kent towards the end of Sept 1940 but for the life of me I cannot find any other info anywhere. Could it be the listing from the book mentioned in my post above (30.9.40 Higham. e/a)? Some entries in the book might have some substance but it's difficult to know which ones without cross referencing with the other BofB books.

Clint

[Peter Cornwell]

Clint,

The only casualty to match in any way those on your list took place on November 2, 1940, as follows:

5./KG76 Junkers Ju88A-1 (4159). Shot down by AA fire during night sortie to London and exploded on New Barn Farm at Southfleet 7.45 p.m. FF Oberfw Oswald Grünke, HB Oberfw Albert Vogl, and BF Uffz Martin Biller all killed, BS Uffz Erich Stumpp missing. Aircraft F1+DN 100% write-off.
What little remained of three of the crew was buried at Stone Cemetery, near Dartford, only Oswald Grünke and Albert Vogl being identifiable and buried along with one 'Unknown' who was later identified as Martin Biller - Erich Stumpp is still officially 'missing'. The identity disc of Albert Vogl and a parachute release buckle were amongst items subsequently recovered by Kent Battle of Britain Museum and now in Hawkinge Aeronautical Trust collection.

The remaining entries have no foundation in historical fact that I can see, and to have actually produced such dubious and speculative entries as late as 1990 is truly regretable, given the wealth of reliable documenation available at that time. It takes more time than I can afford at present to check such unsubstantiated nonsense so this will be my last response to queries relating to entries in 'Aircraft Casualties in Kent'.

Steve,

Only Jessen was 1 Staffel.

[Clint Mitchell]

Hi Peter

I appreciate the time you have taken to post. I am new to this Luftwaffe history/downed aircraft hobby and I only came to get interested in the subject due to my love of creating accurate profile renditions of the aircraft that crashed in my area. An artist I am, a historian I am not, but I am learning and my book collection on the subject is slowly growing. So thanks for pointing out the said books failings and in future I shall treat it's contents with much more scepticism. (That's if it is not filed under B.I.N. by then)

Thanks

Clint

[Brian Bines]

Clint, I do not know where the info. in the book came from or whether it was based on local info. In my case as a lad locals told of a Dornier Flying Pencil that crashed at BishopsCourt Chelmsford on BoB day, turned out to be a He111 in June 1940, Where I worked in the 70's long term employees told of a He111 crewman who fell to his death in the depot in 1940 in fact it was a Ju188 crewman in April 1944. To this end there was a Do17 of KG2 which crashed into a house in Chatham on 15-9-40, a Fw190 of SKG10 shot down at night 16/17-5-43 at Higham, Fw 190 of SKG 10 shot down in river Medway 21/22-6-43, and a Ju188 at Shorne on 24/25-2-44,

Brian Bines

[uckwash]

Steve Vizzard agreed this book would make a good 'foundation' upon which I could then 'build' my research, concerning Tonbridge Rural, Tonbridge & Tun.Wells losses WW2.

Apart from BoB T&N, Fighter Command Losses (N Franks) & local reportage, where else would one turn in order to assemble detailes pertaining to losses during the period 1939-40? I ask.

Having said that I'm grateful indeed for esp. Andy Saunder's & Peter's input to date.

To give you an idea. I went to a farm where a certain Hurricane crashed.
I was told that over the years the owner's father had agreeingly waved goodbye to 99% of the wreckage, to at least half a dozen (now unknown) individuals, in his field, including the engine. Where's it all gone? There're only a few suitably aged locals who can help piece events together now.

Asked where the stuff & the details went I think the farmer's father had some details, he could be contacted in heaven as it were?

I think the information was taken in this book from at least 20 sources, and the enormity of the task is such that further embelishment might have meant 3 men from Kent Aviation Historical Research Society never would have completed this truly huge project ?

Dave