4./Seeaufkl.Gru. 126

[Seaplanes]

The 2./S.A.Gr. 126 was formed according to order from Genst.Gen.Qu. 2.Abt. Nr. 10984/43 gKdos. date not given but order repaeated in KTB Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.M/O.Qu. for October 10, 1943.
The 4./Seeaufklärungsgruppe 126 is to formed locally (Auf dem Kommandowege)with immediate effect. To be effected through Lw.Kdo. Südost. Of the 9 Ar 196, 6 was to be drawn from 1. and 3./S.A.Gr. 125 and the final 3 from reserves. The formation was to be completed before 20.10.43.

Hope this is what you were looking for.

[Seaplanes]

Sorry for the typo. Please read 4./S.A.Gr.126 and not 2./S.A.Gr.126.

[byron-]

Hi seaplanes,

Franz Kurowski in his book "Seekrieg aus der Luft" has some different confusing dates.

4./126 had in May 1943 a small department on Rhodes and participated already Nov.1943 in the fights of Dodekanes

[Seaplanes]

In September 1943 it was decided to form a new Staffel with base in Skaramanga attached to S.A.Gr.126 by drawing the 3 Ar 196's each from 1. and 3./S.A.Gr.125 + a further 3 aircraft from the reserves. These two Staffeln were otherwise equipped with BV 138 but each had a flight of 3 Ar 196. It was also discussed to equip this new Staffel with seaplanes found in Italy. The first mention about this is on 18.09.43 followed by a new letter of 24.09.43. As I mentioned in my previous posting, I do not have the date of the actual formation order from Gen.Qu. 2.Abt., but it was published in the KTB for Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.M. for 10.10.43. I have not seen mention of a 4./126 before this date. Do you have any source refrence. All my information is from the original KTB's.

[byron-]

besides Kurowskis book , no other sources. But there is a loss already in August 1943

FF. Uffz. Winzer (+) Ar 196 A3 (D1+AN, W.Nr. 0249) Absturz 29.08.43 Bucht von Eleusis,


is your KTB of NARA origin? Can you give me the T and roll-Nr., it would interest me very much to order it Seaplanes, in general this unit S.A.Gr. 126

[Larry deZeng]

Originally Posted by Seaplanes

As late as mid June 1943 the term Aufklärungsfliegerstaffel was still used.
Quote:
Genst.Gen.Qu. 2.Abt. 9036/43 g.kdos. v. 12.6.43:
Gem.o.a. Bezug wird mit sofortiger Wirkung Aufkl.Fl.St. 1/125 aufgestellt.
The reorganisation of the seaplane units was first ordered by Genst.Gen.Qu. 2.Abt. Nr. 9281/43 gKdos. (IIA) v. 5.7.43
when Aufklärungsfliegergruppen became Seeaufklärungsgruppen.
For the units in Norway this reorganisation did not take place until 10.8.43.

Your statement in green is not in dispute. I agree with it. It seems clear from the accumulated evidence that May and June 1943 were a "transitional" period for the Gruppen and Staffeln affected by the reorganization. Some were using the new designations and some were not. Some were using the new designations some of the time but not all of the time during those two months. Here are several additional citations to throw into the pot, so to speak.

ULTRA Intercepts:
08.06.43: 2./Seeaufklärungsgruppe 125 reported 12 x Ar 196s on strength at Suda Bay (ML5771). The Staffel identified itself with that designation.

Gen.Qu.(6.Abt.) Verlustmeldungen:
29.05.43: Ar 196 shot up and damaged 35% charged to 1./Seeaufkl.Gr. 126.

Published Sources:
08.06.43 (give or take a day or two) is given as the formation date for 1.(F)/SAGr. 128 (Kurowski p.248 and S.Neitzel p.194).

So, as I stated previously, there seems to have been some flexibility in the use of the new designations once the notifications went out.

L.

[Seaplanes]

Mr. Kurowski is not completely correct. In the KTB of Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.M./O.Qu. for June 1943, the formation order for 1. and 2./128 is given as folows:
RdL und ObdL Genst.Gen.Qu. 2.Abt. Nr. 8741/43 gKdos. (IIA) of 29.05.43
Mit sofortiger Wirkung wird die Küstenfliegerstaffel 2./128 aufgestellt.
Mit sofortiger Wirkung wird die Bordfliegerstaffel 5./196 in Küstenfliegerstaffel 1./128 umbenannt und umgewandelt.

In a letter from Lw.Führungsstab of 29.05.43 it was suggested that the term Aufklärungsflieger should be replaced by Seeaufklärung. However, this was a suggestion only and Gen.Qu. 2.Abt. was asked to agree to a new arrangement of the seaplane units. The actual order did not come until 5.7.43.

[Larry deZeng]

Good discussion, Seaplanes. It takes a discussion like this to assemble what is known about a particular subject and then take it apart and examine it.

[byron-]

but as we can see Lary, the dates are very fluid.
for ex. in Qu.M returns we can read under 2./125:

FF. Ofw. Karl Stienkemeier, Ar 196 (W.Nr. 0240) 100% m. BO. Ltn. Wolf Zacharia, beide (+) 03.08.43 Chania,


that is a late date for 2./125

[Larry deZeng]

Byron wrote in part:

but as we can see Lary, the dates are very fluid.

Exactly, Byron, exactly. That's the point I've been trying to make. In 40+ years of researching the Luftwaffe, I have run into it time after time. Even the dates on orders changed as they passed through the various levels of command from 2.Abt.(Organisations-Abt.)/Genst.d.Lw. - to a Luftflotte - to a Fliegerkorps - and finally to the unit or units concerned. So often in the postwar literature we will find different dates for the same order. This is particularly irksome when trying to determine the exact date a particular officer assumed command of a Geschwader, Gruppe of Staffel. Do you use the date of the Luftwaffenpersonalamt order, or the date of the Luftflotte/Fliegerkorps order, or the date of the unit order, or the date he arrived at the unit or the date the unit KTB says he took over, or the date he says he took over in his personal diary, and on and on. And just when you think you have it all figured out, someone else comes along and says it's wrong, usually without offering any evidence, or course. And at the end of the day in the year 2009, I don't think it matters a whole hell of a lot if some researcher/enthusiast uses a date that off by a few days or a few weeks. It's just not terribly significant in the greater scheme of things.

L.

L.