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  #21  
Old 23rd April 2011, 20:50
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC

Hello,

Does anyone have any information on the two Battle/crew losses above that would allow us to put an ID to the plane in the photos under discussion. The most likely candidate would seem to be L5503, since two of the crewmen survived. The death of the radio operator/gunner might be consistent with the rear of the fuselage being torn away. Not clear if this plane actually landed on the beach or was washed ashore by the tide after ditching off the coast.

Any further info out there?

Regards,
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  #22  
Old 24th April 2011, 11:49
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC

Hello,

Have just turned up two photos of 142 SQ Battle L5323 obviously down during the WC of 1940 with a grave next to it. I don't find this on my index of 142 SQ a/c. Can anybody ID this one?

Thanx,
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  #23  
Old 24th April 2011, 20:37
G-ASEA G-ASEA is offline
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Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC

The only photo of a 142 sdn Battle with a grave, I have seen Q-QT in BofF now and then page 450. I have a photo of this aircraft which you can see the serial no L5226. Most 142sdn Battle's you cant read the serial numbers, I dont know if they were painted out?

Dave
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  #24  
Old 24th April 2011, 22:19
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC

Hello,

After looking at our updated EOE Loss List for 142 SQ during the WC, there are several losses in June, 1940, that don't have SNs associated with them, so there are a number of possibilities. I've looked at this photo again, and it shows only a badly stressed rear fuselage either wrenched or burned off the plane. I was confused with another photo, and this one does not have a grave next to it, just some German soldiers around this broken off tail. The SN, L5323, is very clear.

Regards,
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Last edited by Larry Hickey; 24th April 2011 at 22:37. Reason: correcting error
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  #25  
Old 28th April 2011, 18:53
Iain Torrance Iain Torrance is offline
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Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC

Perhaps I can help tidy up a couple of points.

Regarding QT-H, note following comments in 142 ORB

ORB - May 12, more enemy raids during day. A single aircraft flying approximately 1,000ft dropped a stick of 20kg bombs damaging road surface and wrecking K9259 of A Flight which was in its standing

ORB – May 16 Two a/c were left unserviceable in their standings, one in “A” Flight, K9259 (which had received a direct hit during the enemy bombing raid on 12.5.40) and one in “B” Flight L5880.

I am sure L5880 is a typo for L5440. On balance I would take L5440 of the two options. I am not able to comment fully on the QT-H described as belly landed – as I don’t have the photo you are using - but a close comparison of skin damage near the starboard plane code might show the damage as identical to the QT-H in standings. This would support the plane having been pulled forward from its standings by the Germans prior to salvage.

QT-F I have as P5238; AASF 16 May 40; 142 Squ 18 May 40 4RSU 21 May, 21AD 11 June, hence the unpainted codes as with Sqn one day.

Hope that is useful

Kind regards

Iain
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  #26  
Old 29th April 2011, 01:20
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC

Iain,

Thanks for your most useful comments on this thread and on the one regarding 103 SQ. We have approximately 1000 Battle photos in our EOE data base, the vast majority being crashes and crash-landings during the WC, and we're trying, with a lot of help, to sort this all out.

After reviewing our 30 or so photos of QToH destroyed in its stand, it is obvious after examining the photos that this would be K9259. There is a small bomb crater in the dirt just behind the starboard wing root, which has sprayed dirt and debris all over that wing. The Plexiglas is also pretty much blown out of the cockpit panels. There is shrapnel damage to the fuselage skin, and the undercarriage has been blown off. The photos of the plane out in the clear, appear to me to be the same a/c having been towed away from the stand, so they are very likely the same a/c. With this ID, I think that it clears up these two on the initial list that I posted.

Many photos seem to confirm that QToL probably had no SN painted on it. This is based on good photos of both sides of the rear fuselage and the rudder area. The other QToL I'm almost certain was one of the two that went down on a raid in the Boulogne area on Aug. 22, 1940.

I'll address your comments about QToF in a separate post after I've had a chance to study this more, and compare notes with Peter Cornwell.

Regards,
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Last edited by Larry Hickey; 29th April 2011 at 04:15.
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  #27  
Old 7th May 2011, 07:42
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC

Hello,

I thought that I'd bring you up to date on our EOE team's conclusions about some of the mystery 142 SQ Fairey Battle photos listed at the beginning of this post:

1) "Battle L5443. Belly-landed details not recorded. Aircraft QT*B a write-off. (Photo)." This is the a second a/c with this code, the first one being a FL on 10.05.40, retrieved, and later abandoned. The second one Peter Cornwell has now accepted as being one of the two Battles FL on May 22, 1940, in the Paris area:

"22 May 1940:
Battle. Forced-landed outside Paris in bad weather following attack on enemy tank between Amiens and Abbeville 5.30 a.m. Flying Officer A. D. Gosman, Sergeant Pollock, and LAC Gaston all unhurt – returned by rail next day. Aircraft abandoned.

Battle. Lost bearings and forced-landed south of Paris during sortie to attack targets near Florenville 10.50 p.m. Pilot Officer Edwards, Sergeant Green, and LAC Welch all unhurt – returned by rail next day. Aircraft abandoned.

One of these aircraft is believed to have been L5443 QT*B recovered by No.6 Repair & Salvage Unit."

Regarding this one, can anybody help us assess which one of these two was QToB, L5443? Does anyone know of any photos that might be the "other" 142 SQ Battle down that day?

Also, I earlier asked about a photo of QTo? L5323, with the rear fuselage blown off and a crowd of German soldiers around it. Based upon assignment dates for this SN, this almost has to be one of the 4 unknown SN/Coded Battles lost on June 13, 1940 attacking German columns, or missing from a night attack. Can anyone associate this a/c with any of these four incidents, or provide a/c codes, SN or other photo sources for any of these four Battle losses?

"13 June 1940:
Battle. Failed to return from night attack on Gisors and crashed near Les-Corvées-les-Yys, south-west of Chartres, early a.m. Flight Lieutenant A. D. J. Martin, Sergeant E. F. W. Curtis, and Sergeant G. H. Kettlewell killed. Aircraft a write-off.

Battle. Shot down by fighters east of Evreux during attack on enemy columns between Pacy and Vernon; crash-landed with port fuel tank in flames. Possibly that claimed by Lt Sprick of 8./JG26 near Paris 11.39 a.m. Flight Lieutenant J. M. Hewson unhurt. LAC R. S. Utteridge wounded in head admitted to hospital in Chartres where later captured. Sergeant R. V. T. Kitto baled out unhurt, reached England via St Malo. Aircraft a write-off.

Battle. Shot down by fighters east of Evreux during attack on enemy columns between Pacy and Vernon and possibly that claimed by Lt Ebeling of 8./JG26 near Paris 11.40 a.m. Pilot Officer K. R. Sutton believed unhurt. Sergeant Rudd wounded in head and Sergeant B. J. Rowe wounded left leg, both admitted to hospital. Aircraft a write-off.

Battle. Failed to return from attack on armoured columns near Montmirail and believed that claimed by Lt Strobl of 5./JG27 over Romilly-sur-Seine 5.30 p.m. Sergeant D. J. Holliday, Sergeant D. A. Whiting, and AC T. Greenall captured. Aircraft a write-off."

We've now accepted that QToF ("F" code only on starboard side) as being L5436 abandoned at the No.21 Air Deport at Château Bougon, Nantes, France, on 15 June 1940. We have about 6 photos of this a/c there, but the SN is still pretty fuzzy and I'd certainly appreciate a clear copy of the SN on this one if someone has one.

There are still a number of tightly stacked Battle fuselages side-by-side at one place at that depot, and we'd still appreciate photos showing the planes abandoned there in hopes of clarifying some of the plane codes/SN abandoned there.

And finally for now, I'm seeking photos or a/c code info on these 142 SQ Battles lost on 11 and 15 June 1940 respectively.

"11 June 1940: Battle L5200. Shot down by AA south of Rouen during attack on pontoon bridges over the Seine at Le Manoir. Sergeant J. N. Fraser and Sergeant J. H. Ledson killed. Pilot Officer B. W. Peryman captured. Aircraft a write-off."

and:

"15 June 1940: Battle L5455. Belly-landed at Morannes, north of Angers, due to engine failure en-route to England 12.00 p.m. Pilot Officer M.J.A. Kirdy and two crew unhurt. Aircraft abandoned.
This machine was later destroyed by occupying German forces due to the presence of bombs but not before the Aircraft Maintenance Log confirming serial number L5455 had been liberated from the cockpit, along with other documents, by local youth Andre Constantin who passed them all to the British Embassy in Paris in 1944."

Can anybody be of further assistance?

Regards,
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