Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Allied and Soviet Air Forces

Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #641  
Old 23rd April 2013, 10:16
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,576
Laurent Rizzotti is on a distinguished road
Re: Friendly fire WWII

Hi Nick, it was a sticky at a time before activity of the thread went down.

Brian, I think you have a fold3 account now, here are some links on the USN War Diaries section describing friendly fire incidents. These reports are always written from the ship side and do not identify the aircraft involved, but are interesting anyway.

9 June 1944: several Allied aircraft shot down off Normandy by naval Allied AA fire
http://www.fold3.com/image/#276912467

21 June 1944: a PBM shot down by friendly fire off Marianas
http://www.fold3.com/image/#293478421

25 October 1944: a aircraft shot down by friendly AA fire off Leyte
http://www.fold3.com/image/#293478421

2 December 1944: a PT boat strafed by an Allied aircraft
http://www.fold3.com/image/#295371282
Reply With Quote
  #642  
Old 9th May 2013, 11:54
HGabor HGabor is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 819
HGabor will become famous soon enough
Re: Friendly fire WWII

On February 4, 1945 three La-5s fired 39. ORAP recce. Pe-2 at 5300 m over Dunaföldvár, Hungary. Fast speed bomber slightly escaped but observer, Lt. Anatolii Alekseevich Kovyazhin was killed by friendly bullets. Buried at Szabadszállás.

All planes 17 VA, 3rd Ukrainian Front.

Gabor
Reply With Quote
  #643  
Old 23rd May 2013, 15:56
Darius Darius is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Stuttgart
Posts: 75
Darius is on a distinguished road
Re: Friendly fire WWII

Hello,

I have here the Information about a friendly-fire incident on 20.01.1944 off Norway.

Following the KTB Skl, about noon that day 8 torpedo aircraft attacked the german minelayer "Skagerrak" with his escorts and AP of 2 fighters and a Bv flying-boat. 3 attackers were shot down, the "Skagerrak" sank following torpedo hit.

In chapter about airwar, there is a notice, that the german CAP shot down two own airplanes.

Do you have any further data about this Action?

Thank you

Darius
Reply With Quote
  #644  
Old 28th May 2013, 12:10
Ota Jirovec Ota Jirovec is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Posts: 231
Ota Jirovec
Re: Friendly fire WWII

Hello,

One more case:

Uffz. Gabriel Tautscher of 9./JG 51 was demoted to the rank of Flieger after he has shot down by error the reconnaissance Ju 86 R of 1.(F)/100 (returning from the sortie to the Moscow area) near Vjazma on 9 February 1943. Apparently, Tautscher was not familiar with the recognition chart of a Ju 86 R (which was moreover reported as an enemy aircraft) and had experienced problems with icing of his windshield that further obstracted his view. Nevertheless, after his demotion Tautscher continued to add to his score, was promoted back to Unteroffizier and awarded the Deutsches Kreuz in Gold before being killed by a flak hit east of Osaritchi on 12 January 1944 (with at least 58 kills on his credit).

Source: Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe Part 12/II by Prien et al., pages 72-73.

Ota
Reply With Quote
  #645  
Old 31st May 2013, 00:20
airfoiledagain
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Friendly fire WWII

Hello:
I'm not clear whether you are interested in post-WWII friendly fire incidents, or if you might want to know the details surrounding a bizarre occurrence early in the Korean War, in which a US B-26 Invader attack bomber was nearly shot down (knowingly and intentionally) by a US F-82 (twin-Mustang) whose pilot for some reason suspected the B-26 of being flown by a North Korean spy.
Reply With Quote
  #646  
Old 21st June 2013, 10:16
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,576
Laurent Rizzotti is on a distinguished road
Re: Friendly fire WWII

Hello Brian,

Just finished to study the case of the PBM of VP-16 shot down by US destroyers on 21 June 1944, signaled above, to include it on www.crashplace.de. Here is my final result, in case you're interested:

In the evening of 21 June 1944 US Navy Destroyer Divisions 92 (USS Boyd, Bradford, Brown and Cowell) and 104 were proceeding independently west of Marianas, about ten miles apart on parallel course, to rendezvous with a fueling group when at 2217 hrs radar contact was made with several unidentified aircraft, bearing 130°, distance 60 miles. The destroyers formed a column but at 2223 hrs the contact faded. At 2227 hrs another contact was made with one unidentified aircraft, bearing 055°, distance 30 miles.

At 2234, 2242, 2255, 2258 hrs the destroyers changed course to evade and give all ships clear firing bearing. Another radar contact made at 2241 hrs faded 5 minutes later. The closer unindetified aircraft was now orbiting close to the formation out of range, but then started a low level approach and at 2309 hrs it was at four miles, bearing 215° and closing. Permission to open fire was asked and granted if the plane approached within 10,000 yards. The plane continued its approach directly toward the division and fire was opened at 2310 hrs at about 8,000 yards, while the destroyer executed turn to avoid anticipated torpedo. All four destroyers fired, expending a total of 262 5’’ and 132 40mm shells and at 2312 hrs the aircraft was shot down by 15°06 N 139°20 E.

The Brown was sent to investigate crash. It found a wing float painted characteristic light and dark blue as US Navy planes. The crew attempted to get pontoon aboard for further identification but it proved too heavy to handle. The body of a man was reported sighted with a yellow life jacket similar to the one worn by Amerian aviators. An attempt was made to recover it but the ship was unable to find it again. A pilot aboard the destroyer saw a deflated rubber boat with C02 bottles and recoginzed it as US. A window curtain with spring roller marked in USA was picked up. Despite thorough search of area, no other identification material and no survivor was found. It was concluded that the aircraft had been a friendly PBM.

Earlier during the day the division had made contact with friendly patrol planes not showing IFF, and had been reminded at 1630 hrs that friendly submarines and search planes with IFF inoperative were in the area. This was reminded to the ships when the evening calls were made. A ship of DevDiv 104, USS Hunt, reported that plane’s motirs sounded familiar, and the Boyd was ordered to broadcast on all aircraft voice circuits "Any search plane investigating surface ships get away from the area because your IFF is not working", while Cowell reported hearing a test call on TBL. All ships of DesDiv 92 were asked if they had any indication that contact was firendly. All replied negative.

In DesDiv 92 report it was believed that the PBM thought DesDuvs 92 and 104 were enemy and was making an attack on DesDiv 92, but it is possible that he was investigating DesDiv 104 and was unaware of the presence of DesDiv 92. A message reporting that a search plane was investigating a radar contact was received in the Boyd at approximately the instant of opening fire.

The conclusion of the report was that in the situation described above the matter of self preservation demanded to DesDiv 92 to open fire: "This tragic indident is deeply regretted but it is felt that in the circumstances no alternative was open to Commander Destroyer Division 92 to act other than as he did."

The lost Mariner was from VP-16. This unit was operating from the open sea off the roadstead of Garapan Harbor, Saipan, since the 18th, being serviced by the ISS Ballard first and then the USS Pocomoke. Seven aircraft of this unit were flying night patrol operations this night and one, 16-P-13 (PBM-3D Buno 45216), did not return. His last transmission to the base was "Investigating suspicious vessel." His fate was unknow until the 23rd, when the report of the shooting down of a PBM by DesDiv 92 was received.

Crew (all missing):
Lt.Cmdr Harry R Flachsbarth, USNR (pilot)
Ens Lyman E. Benson, USNR
Ens Larsen G. Ruth, USN
ARM3c Cecil Hertford Wiggs, USNR
AMM3c Austin Earl Hoskins, USNR
AMM3c George Plant, USNR
AMM1c Robert Eugene Wise, USNR
ARM3c James Terry Greenfield, USNR
S1c Lee Roy Douglas, USNR
AMM3c Alexander Hilton,Jr.
AMM3 Ray R Moorman, USN (not in VP-16 war diary, but in all other sources)
AOM3c Wallace Blackwell Grant, USNR

All are commemorated on the Tablets of the Missing at Manila American Cemetery, Philippines.

Quite a great deal of trouble was experienced by VP-16 with IFF equipment during the first 10 days of operations at Saipan because of the following reasons:
(a) Rough water take-offs and landings with the heavy loads on the open sea on the leeward side of Saipan undoubtedly jarred the IFF equipement out of adjustment.
(b) the IFF equipement had apparently not been properly serviced by Hedron, Fleet Air Wing Two, at Kaneoke Bay, T. H.
(c) Although the proper equipment for testing and checking the IFF was on board the USS Pocomoke, it had not been set up for use and no one on board was qualikied to set it up. This was overcome when ACRT Parry arrived on board and set up a test bench for IFF. The delay on his arrival coupled with the failure to provide similarly qualified people in the PATSU, was the direct cause of the loss of the above crew.

Source:
COMDESDIV 92, Report of shooting down of friendly aircraft on 6/21/44, West of Marianas (http://www.fold3.com/image/277072603/#277072467/)
VP-16 War Diary, June 1944 (http://www.fold3.com/image/279790195/#279790176/)
http://www.vpnavy.com/vp16_mishap.html
"The fighting flying boat: a history of the Martin PBM Mariner", by Richard Alden Hoffman. ISBN 1-59114-375-6
http://www.abmc.gov/search/wwii.php
http://wikimapia.org/#lang=fr&lat=15...139.333333&z=6

By the way by reading VP-16 war diary I discovered another case of friendly fire, on 19 June 1944 a PBM of this unit was attacked by USN fighters. It was not lost but one crew was fatally wounded. See: http://www.fold3.com/image/279790195/#279790183/.

Best regards
Reply With Quote
  #647  
Old 21st June 2013, 22:48
Brian Brian is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk
Posts: 3,972
Brian is on a distinguished road
Re: Friendly fire WWII

Hi guys

Many thanks for the continuing accounts of friendly fire incidents - I continue to be amazed by the number of such incidents.

Laurent - I'm forever in your debt.

Airfoiledagain - please send more details.

Gabor, Darius, Ota - many thanks indeed.

Great stuff, keep it coming!

Brian
Reply With Quote
  #648  
Old 23rd June 2013, 19:29
Juha's Avatar
Juha Juha is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 1,383
Juha is on a distinguished road
Re: Friendly fire WWII

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darius View Post
Hello,

I have here the Information about a friendly-fire incident on 20.01.1944 off Norway.

Following the KTB Skl, about noon that day 8 torpedo aircraft attacked the german minelayer "Skagerrak" with his escorts and AP of 2 fighters and a Bv flying-boat. 3 attackers were shot down, the "Skagerrak" sank following torpedo hit.

In chapter about airwar, there is a notice, that the german CAP shot down two own airplanes.

Do you have any further data about this Action?

Thank you

Darius
Attackers were 4 Torbeaus and 4 escort Beaus from 489 Sqn (RNZAF), none were lost only a couple planes were hit by the AA. One can find a bit more info e.g. from Björn Hafsten's et al Flyalarm. Luftkrigen over Norge 1939 - 1945 (1991) p. 189.

Juha

Last edited by Juha; 23rd June 2013 at 21:00. Reason: Correcting a typo in the page number
Reply With Quote
  #649  
Old 11th September 2013, 23:51
Juha's Avatar
Juha Juha is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 1,383
Juha is on a distinguished road
Re: Friendly fire WWII

Hello Brian
I cannot remember, if I have given this before but anyway
LW_tappiot 1944-06-20 c. 07.00 Ju 87D-5 S7+JL WNr. 131926 3./SG 3 NN pilot bo unhurt, Krausse, Walter Gefr. WO/AG bo slightly inj. Viipuri/Vyborg Shot down by Finnish AA

Juha

Reply With Quote
  #650  
Old 16th September 2013, 23:54
Brian Brian is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk
Posts: 3,972
Brian is on a distinguished road
Re: Friendly fire WWII

Hi Juha

Many thanks.

Cheers
Brian
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
SWP Friendly Fire Franek Grabowski Japanese and Allied Air Forces in the Far East 13 8th February 2011 09:37
Friendly fire losses Nonny Allied and Soviet Air Forces 5 23rd May 2009 18:56
Just how good was German Flak Jon Allied and Soviet Air Forces 10 1st June 2005 05:12
wierd incident involving P47 and 'friendly fire' Lagarto Allied and Soviet Air Forces 0 26th March 2005 18:43
56th FG - friendly fire case on 4 May 1943 - info needed Lagarto Allied and Soviet Air Forces 28 12th March 2005 23:33


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:46.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net