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  #21  
Old 15th February 2012, 10:06
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces

Hi Andreas

Question about descrepancies is complex in intself. I am sure there were a few pilots either dis-honest or exagerating post-war. Most were not surviving the war, so where do we get there totals from? Some were still active at the wars end, and thus missing the micro films, some had unconfirmed in there totals(they counted claims, sometimes it would be eighteen months before being refused/or confirmed. Very often once a figure is published in a book it becomes "Cast in Stone"!

Forgot to mention about Toll.....he was very active at the wars end, and some of his 1945 claims appear in the KBT document, the last states his forty-seventh kill.

Regards

Johannes
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  #22  
Old 15th February 2012, 15:58
Leo Etgen Leo Etgen is offline
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Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces

Hi guys

Very interesting thread and I am glad that I have been able to be of some help. I can add that Heribert Koller was at some point awarded the Deutsches Kreuz in Gold as I have a photograph of him wearing that decoration. The date of the award unfortunately is not known to me, though. As Johannes notes he was born on 10 December 1920 at Fichtelberg. I can also add that Hans Boos was born on 12 December 1919 at Oberbruch and Richard Quante was born on 14 January 1912 at Saargemünd.

Horrido!

Leo
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  #23  
Old 15th February 2012, 20:05
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces

Thanks Leo.

Do you want to go over 30-39 non Ritterkreuz carriers?

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S Koller is still living, is anybody in a position to ask him about when he was awarded the DKiG?
Of interst is that I could find only forty-seven of the forty-eight claims he had listed until the end of 1944(one appartently was never confirmed), and have accepted his 1945 claim as he has a full date! His DKiG was well earned.

I was once asked by a author to lookover a nightfigter pilots list, and try to match them against the micro films, the pilot stated that he thought one was unconfirmed, and sure enough all were recorded on the micro films eccept one!
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  #24  
Old 15th February 2012, 21:12
Gordon Raddock Gordon Raddock is offline
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Gordon Raddock
Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces

Karl Fuchs born 4 March 1917 at Wien
Gabriel Tautscher born 5 May 1919 at Umberg
Wilhelm Hauswirth born 31 January 1918 at Weingarten
August Dilling born 6 April 1917 at Gieswied
Rudolf Saborowski born 31 December 1916 at Berlin
Hans Frese born 2 May 1921 at Uetersen
Lothar Mai born 20 August 1918 at Lublinitz
Kurt Tangermann born 30 May 1921

Hope this helps
Gordon

p.s. check you pm
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  #25  
Old 15th February 2012, 23:09
Jim P. Jim P. is offline
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Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces

Here's what I have so far - no new names I think, but maybe a few more details.

Meltzer, Karl-Heinz, Fw., 74, JG 52, DKiG, MIA on 14-Aug-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Fast, JG 52, IV p.104
Fuchs, Karl, Ofw., 67, JG 54, DKiG, MIA on 10-Oct-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54
Ellendt, Hans, Ltn., 64, JG 52, DKiG, WIA on 28-Dec-43 due to Luftkampf. (inc. 2 tanks!), O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Barbas, II./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.119
Cordes, Karl-Heinz, Ltn., 62, JG 54, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Scutts, JG 54
Beutin, Gerhard, Ofw., 61, JG 54, JGr.West, DKiG, KIFA 25-Jun-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54
Jahnke, Walter, Ltn., 58~, JG 52, JG 11, JG 7, DKiG, (49 doc. with JG 52), O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Barbas, I./JG 52; Prien/Rodeike, JG 1 & 11, III; Foreman/Harvey, 262 Combat Diary; Boehme, JG 7
Nehring, Adolf, Ltn., 58, JG 52, DKiG, (56 doc.), O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Barbas, I./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.118
Forbrig, Horst, Ltn., 58, JG 54, DKiG, MIA on 12-Jun-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54
Haberda, Helmut, Ltn., 58, JG 52, DKiG, KIA on 8-May-43 by Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Barbas, II./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.92
Dittlmann, Heinrich, Ofw., 57, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 23-Feb-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Schumacher, Karl, Fw., 56, JG 52, DKiG, KIA on 31-May-44 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Fast, JG 52, IV
Eberwein, Manfred, Oblt., 56, JG 52, JG 54, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Barbas, I./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV; Scutts, JG 54
Sterl, Andreas, Ltn., 56, JG 52, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Barbas, II./JG 52; Fast, JG 52
Holtz, Helmut, Fw., 56, JG 51, DKiG, POW on 18-Apr-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Tautscher, Gabriel, Uffz., 55, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 12-Jan-44., Aders/Held, JG 51
Olsen, Kurt, Ltn., 54, JG 54, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock
Hauswirth, Wilhelm, Fw., 54, JG 52, DKiG, MIA on 5-Jul-43 due to Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.98
Reiff, Hans, FhjFw., 54, JG 3, DKiG, KIA on 2-Dec-44 due to Luftkampf with P-47s., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien, III./JG 3; Prien/Stemmer, Stab und I./JG 3
Sommer, Adalbert, Hptm., 53, JG 52, JG 2, DKiG, KIA on 14-Mar-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Fast, JG 52
Quarda, Josef, Fhr., 52, JG 54, EJG 1, DK?, KIA on 5-May-45 by own Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Boc
Wefers, Heinrich, Ofw., 52, JG 54, DKiG, KIA on 18-May-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54
Brill, Karl, Ltn., 52, JG 54, JG 7, DKiG, Maybe only 35., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Scutts, JG 54; Barbas, Planes of the Luftwaffe Aces, II; Boehme, JG 7; Foreman/Harvey, Me262 Combat Diary
Grumme, Ernst-Dietrich, Ltn., 51, JG 51, JG 302, DKiG, KIA on 14-Jul-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Lw im Focus #4, p.43; Reschke, JG 301/302, p.241
Dilling, August, Ofw., 51, JG 3, DKiG, KIA on 14-Jun-44 due to Luftkampf with B-26s., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien/Stemmer, II./JG 3; Prien/Stemmer, Stab und I./JG 3
Küken, Wilhelm, Fw., 51, JG 51, JGr.Ost, DKiG, Killed on 2-Apr-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Stendel, Fritz, Hptm., 49, JG 51, JG 5, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Müller, August, Ofw., 49, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 6-Apr-45. (Gustl? Gustav?), Aders/Held, JG 51
Arnold, Heinz, Ofw., 49, JG 5, JG 7, DK?, MIA on 17-Apr-45. 7 w/Me262, O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Girbig, JG 5, Foreman/Harvey, Me262 Combat Diary; Boehme, JG 7
Koller, Heribert, Ofw., 49, JG 54, , , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; FB
Toll, Günther, Ofw., 49, JG 2, JG 52, DKiG, WIA on 7-Jul-43 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Fast, JG 52, IV
Müller, Xaver, Ofw., 47, JG 54, DKiG, KIA on 27-Aug-43 by Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54; Barbas, Planes of the Luftwaffe Aces, II
Seidel, Georg, Ofw., 47, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 6-Mar-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Tangermann, Kurt, Ltn., 46, JG 54, JG 52, JG 7, DKiG?, 304 ff, O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Boehme, JG7, Foreman/Harvey, Me262 Combat Diary
Daspelgruber, Franz, Oblt., 46, JG 3, DKiG, Stkp. MIA on 16-Jul-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien, IV./JG 3
Surau, Alfred, Ofw., 46, JG 3, DKiG, KIA 14-Oct-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, III./JG 3
Theimann, Wilhelm, Ofw., 45, JG 51, DKiG, MIA on 29-Jul-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Ratzlaff, Kurt, Ofw., 45, JG 52, DKiG, KIA on 29-Sep-42 after Luftkampf. FSA, shot in chute. (68 per Fast), O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.77
Föhl, Heinz, Ltn., 45, JG 52, , Is this legit? No claims via docs yet., Fast, JG 52
Vinzent, Otto, Oblt., 45, JG 54, DKiG, KIA on 4-Jan-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54
Mai, Lothar, Ofw., 45, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 27-Aug-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Frese, Hans, Ltn., 44, JG 3, DKiG, Stfhr. KIA on 8-Mar-44 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Stemmer, II./JG 3; Prien/Stemmer, Stab und I./JG 3
Dettke, Alfred, Fw., 44, JG 54, DKiG, KIA on 5-Jan-43 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock
Reinhardt, Hans-Günther, Fw., 44, JG 54, JG 1, DKiG, WIA on 8-Oct-43 due to Luftkampf with B-17s., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien/Rodeike, JG 1 & 11, I
Quante, Richard, Fw., 44, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 14-Aug-42 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Decker, Otto, Oblt., 43, JG 52, DKiG, Stkp. KIA on 27-Aug-42 by Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.73
Miksch, Alfred, Fw., 43, JG 3, JG 1, DKiG, KIA on 1-Dec-43 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien & Rodeike, JG 1 & 11
Stolte, Paul-August, Hptm., 43, JG 54, JG 1, JG 3, DKiG, KIA on 18-Oct-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien/Stemmer, II./JG 3
Niese, Erhard, Oblt., 43, I(J)/LG 2, JG 77, JG 4, DKiG, Stkp. KIA on 18-Feb-45 in crash., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 77, IV
Plücker, Karl-Heinz, Oblt., 42, JG 52, DKiG, Stkp. KIA on 10-May-44 due to Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Barbas, I./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV, p. 124
Hannig, Norbert, Ltn., 42, JG 54, JG 7, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Scutts, JG 54; Boehme, JG 7
Haala, Sigurd, Oblt., 42, JG 54, DKiG, Stkp. POW on 21-Aug-44 due to Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock
Gabl, Josef, FhjOfw., 42, JG 51, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Reinhold, Gerhard, Ofw., 41+, JG 5, JG 7, DKiG, KIA on 4-Apr-45. 250~ ff, Girbig, JG 5; Boehme, JG 7; Foreman/Harvey, Me262 Combat Diary
Saborowski, Rudolf, Ofw., 41, JG 3, DKiG, KIA on 8-Jul-42 due to Luftkampf with Pe-2 and MiG-3., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, III./JG 3
Boos, Hans, Oblt., 41, JG 3, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 21-Apr-43 in Luftkamp., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Schneider, Gerhard, Ltn., 41, JG 51, JGr.Ost, DKiG, KIA on 5-Jan-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
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  #26  
Old 15th February 2012, 23:10
Jim P. Jim P. is offline
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Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces

Schwarz, Günther, Fw., 40~, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 24-Oct-43 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Schütte, Josef, Ofw., 40, JG 3, DKiG, KIA on 4-Dec-43 due to Luftkampf with P-47s., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien/Stemmer, II./JG 3
Heitkamp, Walter, Ofw., 40, JG 52, DKiG, KIC 7-Apr-43. (28 doc.), O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Barbas, I./JG 52; Fast, JG 52
Seckel, Georg, Hptm., 40, JG 77, JGr. 200, JG 4, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 77, III, IV
Segatz, Hermann, Hptm., 40, JG 26, JG 51, JG 5, JG 1, DKiG, KIA on 8-Mar-44 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien & Rodeike, JG 1 & 11, II; Aders/Held, JG 51; Girbig, JG 5
Lausch, Bernard, Ofw., 40, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 4-Jul-42., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Hessel, Bernhard, Fw., 40, JG 51, DKiG, MIA on 2-Sep-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Hähnlein, Georg, Ltn., 40, JG 54, , KIA on 25-Aug-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Scutts, JG 54
Bremer, Peter, Fw., 40, JG 54, DKiG, POW on 13-Jul-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Scutts, JG 54
Sinner, Rudolf, Major, 39, JG 27, JG 54, JG 7, DKiG, 305 ff, O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Ring/Girbig, JG 27; Boehme, JG 7; Foreman/Harvey, Me262 Combat Diary
Ludwig, Georg, FhjOfw., 39, JG 77, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien, JG 77, IV
Schöpper, Hans-Wilhelm, Oblt., 39, JGr.186, JG 77, JG 4, DKiG, Stkp. WIA on 12-Feb-44 due to Luftkampf. Maybe just 17!, O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 77, IV; Mombeek, Sturmjäger, I & II
Rüttger, Karl, Oblt., 39, JG 52, DKiG, Stfhr. POW on 1-Jul-42 after Bauchlandung due to engine damage from Luftkampf. Survived!, O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Barbas, I./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.68
Lübking, August, Ofw., 38+, JG 5, JG 7, DKiG, KIA on 22-Mar-45. 3 in 262., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Girbig, JG 5; Boehme, JG 7; Foreman/Harvey, Me262 Combat Diary
Marotzke, Horst, Ltn., 38, JG 77, DKiG, Stfhr. MIA on 11-Dec-42., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 77, IV
Busch, Rudolf, Oblt., 38, JG 51, DKiG, Stkp. KIFA on 17-Jan-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Reibel, Ludwig, Ofw., 38, JG 53, DKiG, KIA on 20-Dec-42 by Flak during low-level attack., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 53, II
Lüth, Detlef, Ofw., 38, JG 3, JG 1, DKiG, KIA on 6-Mar-44 due to Luftkampf with B-17., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien & Rodeike, JG 1 & 11, I, II
Peissert, Herbert, Uffz., 38, JG 53, DKiG, MIA on 4-Sep-42 after Luftkampf with LaGG-3., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien, JG 53, II
Baumann, Helmut, Ltn., 38, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 17-Feb-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Lehner, Alfred, Ltn., 37~, JG 5, JG 7, DKiG, KIA 4-Apr-45., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Girbig, JG 5; Boehme, JG 7; Foreman/Harvey, Me262 Combat Diary
Volke, Maximilian, FhjOfw., 37, JG 77, DKiG, KIA on 5-Sep-44 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 77, III
Ransmayer, Hans, Ltn., 37, JG 54, DKiG, KIA on 20-Sep-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims
Gleissner, Hans, Fw., 37, JG 52, DKiG, KIA on 20-Apr-43, rammed by a P-40., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Barbas, II./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.90
Walter, Albert, Oblt., 37, JG 51, DKiG, MIA on 13-Jul-43 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Hartrampf, Horst, Oblt., 37, JG 54, DKiG, Stkp. KIA on 26-Aug-44 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims
Zander, Friedrich, Ofw., 37, JG 54, JG 1, DKiG, KIA on 26-Dec-44 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien & Rodeike, JG 1 & 11, III; Scutts, JG 54
Rolly, Horst, Ofw., 36, JG 5, JG 400, DKiG, KIFA on 2-Nov-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Girbig, JG 5
Keil, Georg, Ltn., 36, JG 11, , , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Rodeike, JG 1 & 11, III
Stengel, Walter, Oblt., 36, JG 51, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Stöber, Kurt, Ofw., 36, JG 54, DKiG, POW on 15-Jan-43 after Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54
Wehnelt, Herbert, Hptm., 36, JG 20, JG 51, DKiG, Stkp., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Zink, Fülbert, Hptm., 36, JG 26, DKiG, Stkp. MIA on 14-Mar-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien/Priller, JG 26
Kornatz, Hans, Oblt., 36, JG 53, DKiG, Stkp. (maybe 44), O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Fast, JG 52; Prien, JG 53, III
Löhr, Ernst-Heinz, Oblt., 36, JG 3, DKiG, Stkp. KIA on 24-Feb-44 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien/Stemmer, Stab und I./JG 3
Zibler, Emil, Fw., 36, JG 3, DKiG, MIA on 5-Jul-43 after Luftkampf with Pe-2s., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien, III./JG 3, p.456, 498
Widowitz, Wulf-Dietrich, Oblt., 36, JG 5, DKiG, Stkp. Killed on 28-Jul-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Girbig, JG 5
Nordmann, Jürgen, Fw., 36, JG 52, DKiG, WIA on 6-Jun-44 due to Luftkampf with 8 P-39s. (34 doc.), O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Barbas, I./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.126
Sawallisch, Erwin, Ofw., 36, JG 77, JG 27, DKiG, KIC on 19-Aug-42. 3 in Spain., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Ring/Girbig, JG 27
Ernst, Wolfgang, Oblt., 36, JG 77, JG 53, DKiG, , Prien & Rodeike, JG 1 & 11, II; Prien, JG 53, III
Eyrich, Waldemar, Fw., 36, JG 3, DKiG, KIA on 11-Apr-44 due to Luftkampf with enemy fighters., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Stemmer, II./JG 3
Ulbrich, Martin, Fw., 35+, JG 51, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Hamer, Joachim, Ltn., 35~, JG 51, DKiG, MIA on 3-Sep-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Meyer, Rudolf, Ofw., 35~, JG 51, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Söffing, Waldemar, Ofw., 35, JG 26, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Caldwell; Priller, JG 26
Greisert, Karl-Heinz, Major, 35, J/88, JG 2, JG 3, DKiG, Gr.Kdr. KIA on 22-Jul-42 due to Luftkampf. 1 in Spain., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, III./JG 3
Bringmann, Arnold, Fw., 35, JG 3, JV 44?, DK?, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien, IV./JG 3; Prien/Stemmer, II./JG 3; Prien/Stemmer, Stab & I./JG 3
Kühlein, Elias, Ltn., 35, JG 51, JG 7, DKiG, 600~ ff, O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51; Boehme, JG 7; Foreman/Harvey, Me262 Combat Diary
Walther, Horst, Oblt., 35, JG 51, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Mazurek, Marian, Fw., 35, JG 53, DKiG, KIA on 9-Jun-43 due to Luftkampf with B-24s., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien, JG 53, II
Heinzeller, Josef, Oblt., 35, I(J)/LG2, JG 3, JG 2, JG 54, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 77, I; Scutts, JG 54; Prien/Stemmer, II./JG 3
Schmetzer, Reinhold, Ofw., 35, JGr.186, JG 77, JG 4, DKiG, KIA on 7-May-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 77, II; Mombeek, Sturmjäger, I
Helmer, Robert, Ofw., 35, JG 77, DKiG, KIA on 26-Feb-43 due to Luftkampf with P-40., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 77, III
Einsiedel, Heinrich Graf von, Ltn., 35, JG 2, JG 3, DKiG, POW on 30-Aug-42 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, III./JG 3
Bertram, Günther, Oblt., 35, KG 4, NJschwarm LW-Kdo Ost, NJG 100, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; LW NF Claims 39-45; Aders, History of the German Night Fighter Force 1917-1945
Müller, Siegfried, Ofw., 35, JG 54, JG 26, DKiG, KIA on 21-Feb-45 due to Luftkampf with P-47s., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54; Urbanke, Green Hearts
Luy, August, Ofw., 35, JG 5, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Girbig, JG 5
Wettstein, Helmut, Hptm., 34, JG 54, , Stkp., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Scutts, JG 54
Baumgartner, Wilhelm, Ofw., 34, JG 77, DKiG, KIA on 11-Apr-43 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 77, III, p.1517
Scholz, Günther, Major, 34, JG 54, JG 5, JG 101, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54; Girbig, JG 5
Aloé, Herbert, Hptm., 34, JG 54, DKiG, MIA on 21-Jun-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54
Bacsila, Erwin, Major, 34, JG 52, JG 77, Sturmst.1, Erpro.16, JG 400, JG 3, DK?, 8 unconfirmed. 14 with JG 52 & JG 77. Final score total is unknown so far., Prien/Bock; Mombeek, Sturmstaffel 1; Jet & Prop, 5/95 p.41
Färber, Leonhard, Ltn., 34, JG 52, , Stkp. MIA on 27-Jan-45 due to Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Barbas, I./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.131
Taubenberger, Hans, Oblt., 34, JG 51, , , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Füreder, Georg, Ltn., 34, JG 54, JG 11, , , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien & Rodeike, JG 1 & 11, III; Scutts, JG 54
Rieckhoff, August, Ltn., 34, JG 52, , Stfhr. KIA on 9-Feb-45 by Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Barbas, I./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV
Klemenz, Otto-Karl, Oblt., 34, JG 52, , Is this guy same as NF pilot?? (none doc.), Fast, JG 52
Heilmann, Wilhelm, Hptm., 34, JG 54, , , Scutts, JG 54
Schlick, Horst, Ltn., 34, JG 77, JG 7, DKiG, 480 ff, O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 77, IV; Boehme, JG 7; Foreman/Harvey, Me262 Combat Diary
Schmitz, Günther, Ltn., 34, JG 77, DKiG, WIA on 28-Jul-44 due to Luftkampf. POW on 28-Aug-, O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 77, IV; Scherzer
Krahnke, Wolfgang, Fw., 33+, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 10-Sep-43 due to Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Kossatz, Günther, Ltn., 33+, JG 51, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Eberle, Friedrich, Major, 33~, JG 51, JG 1, JG 4, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien & Rodeike, JG 1 & 11, II, III; Aders/Held, JG 51
Fischer, Kurt-Reinhard, Oblt., 33, JG 54, DKiG, Stfhr. KIA on 8-Dec-43 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54
Weidlich, Bruno, Fw., 33, JG 77, DKiG, WIA on 4-Mar-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien, JG 77, III
Schlüter, Harro, Ltn., 33, JG 3, DKiG, Stfhr. KIFA on 15-Apr-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Stemmer, Stab und I./JG 3
Stratznicky, Erwin, Oblt., 33, I(J)/LG 2, JG 77, JG 3, DKiG, Stkp. MIA on 3-Oct-42 after Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien/Stemmer, Stab und I./JG 3
Leykauf, Erwin, Oblt., 33, JG 54, JG 26, JG 7, DKiG, 551 ff, 8 at night., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; LW NF Claims 39-45; Priller, JG 26; Boehme, JG 7
Wolter, Robert, Uffz., 33, JG 77, DKiG, MIA on 2-Oct-42 after mid-air collision., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock
Beyer, Heinz, Ofw., 33, JG 5, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Girbig, JG 5
Cech, Franz, Fw., 33, JG 3, DKiG, WIA on 27-Sep-43, no more combat. (Some sources say 65.), O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Stemmer, II./JG 3
Kurz, Günther, Ltn., 33, JG 52, DKiG, KIA on 11-Oct-43 due to Luftkampf with La-5., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Barbas, II./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.114
Brückmann, Fritz, Ltn., 33, JG 52, DKiG, KIA on 20-Jul-42 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.70
Glöckner, Rudolf, Oblt., 32, JG 77, JG 5, , Gr.Kdr., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Girbig, JG 5
Matuschka, Siegfried Graf von, Oblt., 32, JG 54, DKiG, Stkp. KIA on 15-Apr-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54
Lieres und Wilkau, Karl von, Oblt., 32, JG 27, DKiG, Stkp. KIA on 11-Jun-43 due to Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Ring/Girbig, JG 27
Rabiega, Josef, Ofw., 32, JG 52, , (Only 21 doc.), O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Barbas, II./JG 52; Fast, JG 52
Prager, Hans, Ltn., 32, JG 54, JG 26, , Total may only be 23., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Scutts, JG 54; Priller, JG 26; Frappé, La LW face au débarquement allié,
Neuböck, Ludwig, Oblt., 32, JG 52, , , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Fast, JG 52
Hohenberg, Werner, Fw., 32, JG 52, JG 2, DKiG, POW on 1-Jan-45., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Fast, JG 52, IV
Furch, Ralph, Ltn., 32, JG 51, DKiG, Stkp. KIA on 22-Jan-43 due to Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Heck, Walter, Fw., 32, JG 54, DKiG, KIFA on 22-May-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54
Schuster, Hermann, Ltn., 32, JG 3, DKiG, KIA on 21-Jul-43 due to Luftkampf with Il-2., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Stemmer, II./JG 3
Lange, Helmut, FhjOfw., 32, JG 51, , , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Brand, Richard, Ofw., 32, JG 51, DKiG, MIA on 22-Aug-43 after Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Wiegand, Günther, Ltn., 32, JG 26, DKiG, 7 Viermots, O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Flugbuch; Priller, JG 26; Caldwell
Friedrich, Erich, Oblt., 31+, JG 77, DKiG, Stkp., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 77, II
Geyer, Horst, Major, 31, JG 51, Epr.Kdo 25, EKdo 262, DKiG, Maybe 35., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51; Foreman/Harvey, Me262 Combat Diary
Fränzel, Herbert, Ltn., 31, JG 52, JG 11, , Stfhr. MIA on 27-Sep-44 due to own Flak. (Only 10 doc.), O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Barbas, II./JG 52; Prien & Rodeike, JG 1 & 11, III
Meindl, Franz, Ofw., 31, JG 51, JG 11, DKiG, MIA on 1-Jan-45., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien & Rodeike, JG 1 & 11, III; Aders/Held, JG 51
Merkle, Hans-Jörg, Fw., 31, JG 52, DKiG, KIA on 1-Aug-43, rammed by his 31. abschu§ a Yak-1., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Barbas, I./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.102
Bartz, Erich, Uffz., 31, JG 51, EP, KIA on 25-Aug-44., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Aders/Held, JG 51
Bachmann, Friedrich-Wilhelm, Ltn., 31, JG 52, DKiG, Stkp. MIA on 4-Sep-42 after Luftkampf., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Barbas, I./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.74
Seidl, Alfred, Oblt., 31, JG 53, JG 3, JG 7, DKiG, 614 ff, O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien, JG 53, III; Prien/Stemmer, Stab & I./JG 3
Hacker, Joachim, Ltn., 31, JG 51, DKiG, KIA on 13-Oct-41 due to Luftkampf., Prien/Bock; Aders/Held, JG 51
Schulz, Hans-Gottfried, Hptm., 31, JG 51, , , Aders/Held, JG 51
Crump, Peter, Ofw., 31, JG 26, JG 54, , , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; FB; Priller, JG 26
Schmude, Karl-Heinz, Ltn., 31, JG 54, JG 7, , , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Scutts, JG 54; Boehme, JG 7; Foreman/Harvey, Me262 Combat Diary
Weiß, Franz, Ltn., 31, JG 5, , , Girbig, JG 5
Vögl, Ferdinand, Hptm., 31, JG 27, DKiG, Stkp. Injured on 19-Apr-43., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Ring/Girbig, JG 27; Prien/Rodeike/Stemmer, II./JG 27
Schwienteck, Georg, Ofw., 31, JG 52, DKiG, , O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Barbas, I./JG 52; Fast, JG 52, IV
Zick, Siegfried, Ltn., 31, JG 1, JG 11, DKiG, WIA on 18-Jul-44. 17 Viermots, O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Prien & Rodeicke, JG 1 & 11, II, p. 1210, III, p.1236
Lautenschläger, Gerhard, Fw., 31, JG 54, DKiG, MIA on 16-May-42 due to Flak., O.K.L. Fighter Claims; Prien/Bock; Scutts, JG 54
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  #27  
Old 15th February 2012, 23:25
Jim P. Jim P. is offline
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Jim P.
Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces

I have about 2910 names with 5 or more claims, and haven't worked on this list in some time during which my claims list has been has been updated significantly. I have over 73K claims listed, including some 360+ from Spain. I expect that as the 'Jagdwaffe' series progresses and claims are updated from that, some guys may fall off, some may be added. And that series only includes fighter units.
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  #28  
Old 16th February 2012, 11:03
Kapper Kapper is offline
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Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces

Johannes

I know from your posts in the past that when you do these lists like this one, you only count the victories that you have seen evidence of the claim being confirmed in the RLM files. However, have you looked a Dr Prein’s work that he has done for the JFV series. Dr Prien has brought to light many corrections to the mis-read hand written records on the RLM files and many additional claims (many confirmed).

In his works he’s marked those claims that he has documented evidence that they had been confirmed with a B (Bestätigt).Those that he found that were officially not confirmed he marked with n.b. (nicht bestätigt)and not included in the pilot’s personal tally. For the claims that Prien cannot find any documented evidence to support confirmation he still included in the score but without the confirmation letter B. Therefore a claim which Prien has not been able to confirm because of a lack of evidence is different to a claim that was not confirmed (rejected?). I personally believe Dr Priens system is a better system as it is like innocent until proven guilty and not guilty due to lack of evidence.

Anyway, I raise this because in the case of Peter Bremer you have him listed at 37 victories though he is commonly recorded at 40 victories. In Prien’s JFV series he lists the first 20 of Bremer’s victories (up to Bremer’s 24/1/43 victory – as far as the series go at this stage) of which all have been marked B which designates that he has evidence that all 20 were confirmed. The next 20 victories are listed on the claims list with anerk numbers which indicate that all these were also confirmed. This makes Bremer’s total of 40 confirmed claims as reported and generally accepted.

Regards,

Craig…
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  #29  
Old 17th February 2012, 05:07
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces

Hi Graig

Some good points. Sometimes there are time-periods when the micro films(for whatever reason) seem to be missing details from certain units, the most noteable is JG5, moreover the daily micro film entries generally start in late July 1942 and end at varingly times in December 1944, but some units do not, after years of studying the micro films I know which units started when, also there are complete lists prior to the daily account, some of these are missing, point is I have taken all this into account. The KBT documents of 1945 often marks a pilots claim with a number i.e August Lamaberts last is marked as nr 103, so his total of 116(widely believed) is probably at fault, moreover the 116 were widely believed to be all Russian aircraft, yet his 103rd was an American Mustang on 17th April 1945. Like JG5 SG2's claims on the micro films are sporadic, but unlike JG5's that are mostly there SG2's are largely missing.
Going by memory I think that it is Herbert Kaiser's Russian claims that are recorded under a different name, and there is a Joachim Müncheberg entry for Russia when he was claearly in the West, also a few are given dates a day or two after the pilots death or wounded, apart from wrong units given(A Friedrich Obleser one springs to mind). With Woidich we are accepting 110, yet even his own log-book gives just eighty-two, moreover I have dates for the other twenty-eight(which are given during a time when his conrades are all recorded), these twenty-eight when you look at them are completely out of character with his usual claiming patern i.e are all multiple claims daily to his usual very slow steady rate. Bernd Barbas has a copy of his offical(Woidich's) list, and was to meet Woidich for the first time to question this , but Woidich sadly died that day! Another point is that some pilots wanted to forget the war. Bernd and myself wrote to Karl Gratz about his lack of western claims i.e he is generally accepted as 138 claims, seventeen west!, but he didn't even want to talk about the war, which as he pointed out was a small piece of his lifespan!

So is short if I have a pilot who's accepted(without evidence)claims do not appear on the micro films, yet his conrades flying in the same staffel do, then it just should not be, but we also have to think where this pilots accepted claims came from, he probably didn't survive the war, so is propably nothing of his going.

~Innocent until proven guilty, if there are 1945 claims for a pilot I will generally accept them, if from a log-book then I assume they would have been confimed in the fullness of time! Best log-book to look at for 1945 is Peter Düttmann's for deatil, thoough I did find a few of his offical 150 were never confirmed, and a few of his unconfirmed were confirmed, he also had two tanks in his total, but as tanks do not fly I have dis-counted these, (Hans Ellendt also had two tanks among his offical sixty-four, Peter-Georg Eder likewise) I also don't count aircraft destroyed on the ground!

But the whole purpose of this line is to question each other to arrive at some sort of fact based truth, and let's not forget the "Cast in stone" theory where if something is published in a book it is fact.
Years ago a friend of mine who know the ace Marquardt forwarded him a list I had pieced together for him because his log-book had been lost, unfortunalety I had ommitted two claims, years later I found his list somewhwere, with the two omitions, I checked it against my updated version not realising it was my own work, and it was sometime before I worked out it was an earler version of my on work!

Anyway I'll do my 30-39 list next, and hope to enjoy some more corrections/additions.

Regards

Johannes
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  #30  
Old 17th February 2012, 07:17
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces

Hi Guys

There are quite a number 30-39 aces so I'll do it in blocks. Please again be critical, I will check all queries. Any unexplained descrepancies I'll forward the complete list and we can all debate from there!

Karl Rüttger 39(4 west) ?-? DKiG
Friedrich Heimann 39(1 west) 1916-16th April 1944 DKiG
Bernhardt Hessel 38 in the East 1920-2nd September 1943
August Lübking 38(4 viermots) 8th July 1918-28th March 1945 DKiG
Alfred Miksch 38(2 west, 1 viermot) 3rd January 1919-1st December 1943 DKiG.
Peter Bremer 37 in the East 18th December 1919-? DKiG
Maximillian Gregor Volke 37(9 west, 3 viermots) 23th May 1915-5th September 1944 DKiG.
Johannes Gleissner 37 in the East ?-20th April 1943 DKiG
Alfred Emberger 37 in the East 2nd December 1920-12th June 1942 DKiG
Josef Gäbl 36+ in the East ?-survived DKiG
Waldemar Eyrich 36(1 viermot) ?-11th April 1944 DKiG
Siegfried Müller 36(5 west, 3 viermots) 10th November 1917-21st February 1945 DKiG.
Mato Dukovac 36 in the East 23rd September 1918-??September 1990 DKiG.
Kurt Stöber 36 in the East 24th April 1918-3rd May 2000 DKiG
Horst Hartrampf 36 in the East 4th April 1921-26th August 1944 DKiG
Gerhard Reinhold 36(2 viermots) 1919-4th April 1945 DKiG
Ernst-Heinz Löhr 36(2 west) ?-22nd February 1944 DKiG
Hans Rausmayer 36 in the East 24th August 1920-20th September 1944
Bernhard Lausch 36(5 west) 21st July 1916-4th July 1942 DKiG
Füllbert Zink c.36(c.33west) ?-14th March 1943 DKiG
Leonhard Färber 35(1 west) 16th March 1924-27th January 1945
Cvitan Galic c.35 in the East 5th May 1909-6th April 1944 DKiG
Karl-Heinz Greisert 35(24 west, 1 Spain,1 viermot) 2nd February 1908-22nd July 1942 DKiG,SK.
Josef Heinzeller 35(10 west) 10th June 1915-survived
Horst Walther 35(4 west, 2 viermots) ?-survived DKiG
Herbert Aloe 35 in the East ?-21st June 1944 DKiG
Heinrich von Einseidel 35(2 west) 26th July 1921-18th July 2007 DKiG
Erwin Sawallisch 35(24 west, 3 Spain) 8th October 1914-19th august 1942 DKiG,SK.
Emil Zibler 35 in the East ?-5th July 1943 DKiG
Albert Walter 35 in the East 1918-13th July 1944 DKiG
August Müller 34+ in the East ?-6th April 1945 DKiG
Hans Kornatz 34+(9 west) 29th December 1915-23rd August 2002 DKiG
Waldemar Söffing 34(22 west, 1 viermot) 14th August 1916-26th May 1993 DKiG.
Marian Mazurek 34(5 west, 1 viermot) 15th August 1920-9th June 1943 DKiG.
Jürgen Normann 34 in the East ?-survived DKiG?(questionable)
Georg Seckel 34(6 west, 2 viermots) ?-survived DKiG
Friedrich Zander 34(3 west, 1 viermot) ?-26th December 1944 DKiG.

Please check photos for evidence for those that appear not to have received the DKiG.

Regards

Johannes
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