Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 21st September 2012, 20:08
Rémi Baudru Rémi Baudru is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 143
Rémi Baudru is on a distinguished road
At least some informations about RLM 83

Hello guys,


Follow this address :

http://www.clubhyper.com/forums/forum.htm

RB
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 22nd September 2012, 10:36
Rémi Baudru Rémi Baudru is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 143
Rémi Baudru is on a distinguished road
RLM 83 = Darkblue

Here is the copy of post on Hyperscale forum :

" Breaking news regarding RLM83....September 21 2012 at 11:34 AM Gunnar Jansson (Login Gunnar J)
HyperScale Forums
from IP address 164.4.17.32
Hi

Michael Ullmann will have some upcoming breaking news regarding testing and introduction of RLM81, RLM82 and RLM83. I don't want to take any credits from Michael and it's Michael that should be acknowledged, but I can't resist mentioned what I heard on Saturday the 15th.

Michael had a presentation at the "Art in miniature" (IPMS show) in Gothenburg last weekend of his recent archive find's made in august and he told us we was the first to learn about this NEW info and it was VERY interesting indeed and all previous talk about especially RLM 83 now needs to be rewritten.

He have found documents showing the reason to change from RLM70/RLM71 to RLM81/RLM82 and when. The RLM81,RLM82 and (RLM83) colours had been evaluated, approved and adopted for introduction already in late 43, but that old paint stocks should be used up and therefore was not seen until spring-summer of 44 (on land based fighters as they used up the stocks fastest) and to keep it short that's why some plants didn't make the switch for their production as they had stock lasting until the end of the war.

Now the most interesting thing, Michael has found a document stating RLM83!! he mentioned that he has only seen one document earlier mentioning RLM83 and he then believes it might have been a typing error? This has then been wrongly "adopted" as one of the colours seen on land based aircraft BUT the newly found document states RLM83 was a colour intended for aircraft operating over the MTO together with RLM70 or RLM72 and was stated "DUNKEL BLAU" (Dark blue) and intended for introduction at the same time as RLM81 and RLM82.

The RLM 83 was to be applied at unit or depo levels and not from factories, question is how much this colour was ever implemented as in late 43-early 44 not much flying operations was conducted over the Mediterranean.

So what we have left is RLM81 and RLM82, RLM82 (Hell Grun) being the lighter version of green and apparently showed little variation in colour or tone, BUT RLM81 (Olive Grun in document)was all from a dark olive brown to dark green due to no formula specifications was given, all variations seen should now all be traced to RLM81.
Old stocks of paints where to be used up and therefore different combinations was used up and a lot of repainting was also conducted at unit levels.

So RLM83 can now be dismissed for fighters operating on the western and eastern front (if we follow the archive documents )what then makes it a bit odd is that if all schemes consisted of RLM81/RLM82 for the upper camo, where RLM82 "light green" was to give contrast with a darker colour (81), why use RLM81 "twice" when we see both a dark green and a "brown violett" colour on a plane (low contrast)?
Didn't they perhaps have RLM82 in stock but only variations of RLM81 and took these to get some contrast (minor) and difference of colour tones?..fuel for more topics I think.

I just wanted to share this info given to us attending this lecture and Michael has given his permission to post this.

Regards/ Gunnar "
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 22nd September 2012, 22:18
Harold Lake Harold Lake is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 157
Harold Lake is on a distinguished road
Re: At least some informations about RLM 83

Very interesting indeed. It would be nice to have some document dates to better time-line events. But I can't help but wonder if number 83 might have later been reassigned...say to something like Dark Green. Reports of German aircraft with Dark Blue camouflage must have been more than exceedingly rare. With the German loss of North Africa, Sicily and the lower part of Italy, you wonder if introducing a Mediterranean Dark Blue would have been practical or even approved.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 23rd September 2012, 04:06
edNorth edNorth is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,977
edNorth is on a distinguished road
Re: At least some informations about RLM 83

Yes, rare but some exist, I think we are referring to the "dark blue" colour that was observed on Ju 88 550296 and mentioned in Intelligence report :

RAF A.I.2(g) Crashed Enemy Aircraft, Report Serial Nr. 217 (dated 24.01.44): Report No. 8/11. P.1 "very deep blue paint was found on upper surface of the aircraft, and it seems probable that it had been been operating on the anti-shipping sorties in the Mediterranean area at a very recent date"

B/W photos of Ju 88 A-4 (088)550396 B3+MH show this dark blue colour in its combination of Wellenmúster colours after landing in Switzerland 21.10.1943. This had been applied at depot (Múnchen) before the transfer flight.

This abowe I read in Luftwaffe colours book some time ago, but do not remember the author off-hand. So this appears to have been used, but I do not know if it has been indentified as RLM 83 before, or if it has been proven be same colour.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 23rd September 2012, 11:36
Graham Boak Graham Boak is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Lancashire, UK
Posts: 1,565
Graham Boak is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: At least some informations about RLM 83

This is discussed in Ken Merrick's last work.

The colour seen on these Ju88s seems to precede the introduction of 80-series nomenclature, so perhaps this use of 83 was a formalising of service practice? In which case the identity of this paint remains unknown.

I agree that there may have been a reallocation of this number in the intervening time, but perhaps this kind of problem may be clarified when Herr Ullmann published his work in full.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 26th September 2012, 00:02
Cpt_Farrel Cpt_Farrel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 193
Cpt_Farrel is on a distinguished road
Re: At least some informations about RLM 83

I was listening to Ullman when he talked about this and I believe it was first described in 1943 during which durability tests were made. Regarding the Crashed Enemy Aircraft Report from 24/1 - 44 it would indeed be possible that RLM83 was in use by then. The description of the aircrafts service and area of service fits exactly with the intent for RLM83.

I very much doubt that the number would be reassigned though, seems to go against the system as described by Ken Merrick when he wrote about why RLM61 and RLM62 wouldn't have been reintroduced under the same numbers but RLM81 and RLM82.

I wrote down the dates he mentioned, as soon as I find my notebook I'll share the info.

Cheers! / Anders
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 30th September 2012, 09:30
Oberst Oberst is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 378
Oberst is on a distinguished road
Re: At least some informations about RLM 83

Wasn't RLM 83 proven to be used on Me 109G-6 W.Nr. 163 824? I believe the one in the Australian War Museum?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 30th September 2012, 23:05
Cpt_Farrel Cpt_Farrel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 193
Cpt_Farrel is on a distinguished road
Re: At least some informations about RLM 83

It has dark green painted on it, no doubts about that, as documents now show that RLM83 was supposed to be dark blue though it obviously was not RLM83, but perhaps a green version of RLM81 which has been proved existed.

Cheers / Anders
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
RLM 83 color ? Mermet Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 25th July 2012 00:45
rlm colors-eric hartman boggie 1 Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 3 2nd March 2010 17:14
The great camouflage & markings debate Richard T. Eger Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 43 24th September 2007 15:11
RLM 64 and the Junkers Ju 52??? GrahamB Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 16 21st September 2006 00:03
RLM RAL equivalent chart sought BOBC Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 17th August 2005 16:35


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:18.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net