ID two Bf109s destroyed on 29 May 1944

[Roundway]

Thank you all gentlemen. I'll chase up this obvious inconsistency off-board - in the meantime I'm grateful for your assistance.

Brian

[Roundway]

This from the Summary of events from the ORB of 183 Squadron:

Whilst the remainder of the squadron was away (attacking a RDF installation) the 'readiness' section was scrambled. This section consisted of F/O A R Taylor and W/O G F Humphrey. They were vectored onto two aircraft which F/O Taylor quickly disposed of, with two 1-second bursts. Both aircraft crashed into the sea, the pilots baling out. F/O Taylor only fired 40 rounds from each gun. W/O Humphrey was unable to get within range to open fire before the aircraft crashed. The enemy aircraft were FW190s (deleted) ME109s.

Although an RDF installation was attacked at Cherbourg on the 12th, no enemy aircraft were seen.

[Pierre Renier]

Hello Brian
You can see elements of 183 Sqn ORB using the preview links on TNA. The viewable element (on page 7 of http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...index=1&page=1 ) indicates they were up between 1500-1600hrs.
As you say no indications of Luftwaffe losses, however could this be a Blue on Blue encounter? I've had a look at the USAAF MACR reports 5207 and 5208 which are for 2nd Lt Gordon Perry O-812478 and 1st Lt James Lynch O-804009 respectively. Both were flying P-51B Mustangs, with Perry acting as wingman to Lynch and had been engaged on a bomber escort mission to Berlin, interestingly both are reported as being lost at 1517hrs five mile south of the Isle of Wight. Perhaps Brian Cull who is doing a series of books on such encounters might have something in his notes?
In the MACR reports there is a weather report from Thorney Island giving conditions at 1500 BST as being "3 miles visibility in haze. 1/10 cumulus at 2500 feet and 2/10 high cloud above 9000 feet. Wind south at 6MPH".
Regards
Pierre

[Roundway]

That's opened up a whole can of worms, Pierre. One wonders how two Mustangs returning from Berlin to, one assumes, East Anglia, came to be so far off course.

If they were it is not surprising they should be identified as hostile aircraft and fighters scrambled to intercept. The action appears to have been over so quickly it is possble the two aircraft were mis-identified.

Brian

[Brian]

Hi guys

Most interesting!

I don't have this incident logged in my records, so thanks for the information, which I suspect is correct. I will check for a CR for F/Lt Taylor when I next visit TNA.

Pierre, to which unit did Perry and Lynch belong?

Cheers
Brian (Cull)

[Roundway]

Gentlemen,

I've been running a separate thread on this on RAFCommands, but for completeness here this may be of interest:

(a) At the time 183 Squadron was based at Thorney Island (see http://www.rafweb.org/Stations/Stations-T.htm#Thorney), so the two RAF aircraft were almost certainly vectored to the 'hostile' targets by the appropriate Chain High/Low station. I've not seen Taylor's combat report, which would give the time of his action, but since he was airborne between 1500 and 1600 hours it seems too much of a coincidence that the two Mustangs were lost in the same vicinity (south of the Isle of Wight) during that period - they were last heard from at 1517 hours.

The MACR for the lead pilot of the two missing Mustangs, 1st Lt James Lynch, includes a statement from his element leader (1st Lt Evan Johnson) who last heard heard him calling 'Oilskin' for a fix at 1445 hours. 'Oilskin' was the HQ of 66th Fighter Wing at Sawston Hall, and Lynch's base airfield, Fowlmere, was one of its units.

Oilskin ordered Lynch to 'go to Channel 'C' and transmit for a fix on that channel', after which Johnson heard no more transmissions. Lynch undoubtedly made in contact with a radar station after this time as the MACR records his last known whereabouts was 5 miles south of the Isle of Wight at 1517 hours. This being the case it is unlikely Lynch, and his wingman, 2nd Lt Gordon Perry, were lost due to a navigational error.

Although the Fighter Command War Diaries states Taylor's action took place 40 miles south of the Isle of Wight, this must be questionable as that places it in the vicinity of Cherbourg; too close to the French coast, I would have thought, to warrent a section being scrambled. The MACR places the loss as being 5 miles south of the Isle of Wight at 50 deg 40 min N, 1 deg 10 min W, although if the MACR position is based on a fix rather than a definite report there is probably room for some error. The 183 Sqn ORD gives no indication as to the location.

(b) The MACRs for Lynch and his wingman, Perry, (5207 & 5208) both include a map on which the last known contact (at 50 deg 40 min N, 01 deg 10 min W) is plotted as being south of the Isle of Wight. This is definitely an error as 50 deg 40 min N, 01 deg 10 min W is over land, just northwest of the northwest outskirts of Sandown.

We are thus left with one definite positional error, and a questionable one. The evidence increasingly points to a tragic mistake.

Neither of the 183 Sqn pilots, both Canadians, survived the war; Taylor was killed on D-day and Humphrey on 17 August 1944.

The two Mustang serials were 42-106626 and 42-106754.

Brian

[Brian Bines]

Brian, I searched under 'Lt.Gordon Perry USAAF' and got a site 'Lt. James Lynch & Gordon Perry!ArmyAirForces' which shows them as belonging to 505FS/339FG. The site says they flew too far south due to Nav,Error caused by weak radio signals and are believed to have come down in the sea, which however now seems to have resulted in the blue on blue,

Brian Bines

[Roundway]

Too many Brians around here!

The MACRs make no mention of this - although I've no doubt there was a navigational error introduced by the element leader when he first lost contact with the two airmen over Dresden. Quoting from the MACR:

On the 29th May 1944, I was flying as second element leader in Lt Lynch's flight. We were approaching Dresden from the northwest, when we ran into some very heavy flak. We took immediate evasive action, at which time our flight became broken up. After reaching comparative calm I called Lt Lynch on the R/T and asked his course and altitude. He gave these as 160 degrees at 19000 ft. I proceeded on this course trying to rejoin Lt Lynch but after flying for 15 minutes I decided that it would be best for my wingman and myself to join the formation of big friends that I saw in the distance.

I called Lt Lynch again on the R/T and within the next ten minutes gave him three separate headings to fly at 26,400 ft, he responded to each of these transmissions. Headings were 160 degree, 220 degrees and 260 degrees, which were the bombers' course.

With the advantage of nearly 70 years hindsight it seems unwise for Johnson to have suggested these headings without knowing Lynch's position. This would seem to be where the navigational error was introduced.

One other thought; the MACR records the target was Berlin - a long way north of Dresden. So far as I can determine Berlin was not included in USAAF operations that day.

Brian (the Roundway one)

[Roundway]

Brian B

Just found that link to which you referred.

Nick, the source of the information doesn't quote from an official source (at least he doesn't give one), so I suggest he's making an assumption. It would have been very difficult for any aircraft to overfly the southern England or north France into the Atlantic as he suggests, as there was hardly any cloud on the afternoon of 29 May.

Brian

[Pierre Renier]

Hello Brian (Roundway)

Having been off air for a trip to hospital I’d not been able to follow up for a while. By coincidence I’ve been help a good friend with background material in connection with a memorial for Allied Aircrew lost in Bailiwick of Guernsey waters due to be unveiled in September 2015. As part of this research it was decided it would be useful to get copies of some of the ASR units.

It happens the first file I’m reviewing is for 275 (ASR) Squadron, from AIR 27/1596 (p.57) and saw this entry from 29May’44 – “F/O C.C. Phillips and F/Sgt A.W. Hunt were scrambled in Spitfires 846 and 475 to a position 10 to 15 miles S.S.W. of St Catherines Point where two airmen were said to have been shot down. Two Typhoons were circling wreckage, and when the Walrus arrived and landed, the Spitfires which were running short of petrol returned to base. Two launches were seen approaching the Walrus.” Time Up 15.35, Time Down 17.40, Warmwell

The next entry reads – “Walrus 2282 with W/O L.G. Fisher, pilot and F/Sgt D.F. Glass and R.J. Burgess arrived at the position and landed beside the wreckage. Some wreckage consisting of one American type oxygen bottle and three pieces of fabric painted silver with the number 745. A body attached to an opened parachute also seen in full flying kit with a British type helmet, but it sank before it could be rescued. Nearby a deflated dingy was seen which also sank. The Walrus flew back to base when the launches arrived at the wreckage which was thought to be a Mustang.” Time Up 15.30, Time Down 18.30, Warmwell

Sadly it looks increasingly likely a “Blue on Blue” with that the material found by the Walrus crew potentially relating to the a/c of 2nd Lt Gordon Perry in Mustang 42-106745 as detailed in MACR 5207.

I’ve posted the same reply on RAFCommands forum as the thread has also appeared there and know Brian Cull has commented on at least one of those.

Regards
Pierre