Libau 28 October 1944

[kolya1]

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti

Thanks, Andrey. I was guessing something like that.

And more so, it seems that at that period of the war, at least in this area, such overclaims were not uncommon, as you can see for the other raids on Libau (this is only the result of a short research, not necessarily perfectly accurate, but I think it more or less is...) :

- 14/12/1944 : according to John Weal's Osprey book about JG 54, JG 54 scored 44 defending Libau on that day, while the soviet losses were 16 planes (at least 2 of which and probably most of the others fell to AAA).

- 15/12/1944 : same source : 56 claims for JG 54, this time the soviet side lost 24 planes to all causes.


If you consider that AAA was the cause for a non-negligible part of these losses, and that other fighter units (at least Stab/JG 51 and III/SG 3 were also operating Fw-190s in this area) could have been involved, the overclaiming is quite obvious...

[Carl-Fredrik Geust]

Kari,
there were two different "14 GIAP", one VVS (ex 7 IAP), and the other VVS KBF (ex 13 IAP) as Andrei told. Note also that "13 IAP" was used twice by different units in VVS KBF: - after the original 13 IAP became 4 GIAP in Jan 1942, this number became "free" and could be given to the new naval figther regiment. The topic of Guards numbers of Soviet (not only air) units is very complex and interesting. Eg. when ADD became 18 Air army 6 Dec 1944 and thus integrated into VVS, numerous ADD guards units got new numbers, as their numbers were already used in VVS!
Carl

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

Now I get it. There was TWO "14 GIAP" in Leningrad sector after 20.7.1944. One in KBF (ex 13 OIAE, ex 13 KIAP) and one in 13 VA (ex 7 IAP)*. Events after later Summer 1944 are not my forte and the elevation of 13 IAP to Guards status had gone unnoticed by me until now.

Finns shot down at least one 13 KIAP (might have been 14 GIAP already then) LaGG-3 late Summer 1944. It was probably so called "66-series" machine as it was noted that the camouflage was like on Messerschmitts (=two greys).

For KBF 14 GIAP see:
http://www.bellabs.ru/51/Analysis/Command.html#14GIAP

For 13 VA 14 GIAP see:
http://avia-hobby.ru/publ/soviaps/giap_1.html
http://www.allaces.ru/cgi-bin/s2.cgi...uct/p/iap7.dat


Cheers,
Kari

[Andrey Dikov]

Just a correction, Andrey:

>Losses during dogfight were 3 Il-2, also 2 Yak-9 (21.IAP) collided in air on return flight; claims were 8 FW-190 (really 1 or more?).

According to my information these Yaks were from different IAPs - 21 iap and 14 giap.

[yogybär]

One more small additional information:

Libau is not in what was called Ostpreussen by then, but in Kurland, a part of Lithuania.

[Carl-Fredrik Geust]

Correction to small correction:
Libau (Latvian Liepaja) was, and still is (as all Kurland) part of Latvia (NOT Lithuania),
Carl

[yogybär]

Yes, Lettland in german whic his my native language. In english, I tend to confuse them... big sorry to all Lithuanians and Latvians .

[Evgeny Velichko]

Gentlmen, lets start

Around 12:00, there was an attack of Il-2's of 47 ShAP KBF and 8 GvShAP KBF.

Seems, that 47 ShAP made its attack from SW of Libau, while 8 GvShAP - from NW of Libau.

8 GvShAP lost one Il-2 with crew:
Pilot Gv. Ml. L-t Viktor N. Karev (MiA)
Gunner Gv. St. Krasnfl. Petr I. Gavrilov (MiA)

This crew "failed to return from combat mission", location of loss is unknown. This loss almost for sure goes to Hugo Broch, who claimed ths and 1 more Il-2. 2nd claim is not confirmed by VVS losses, but I dont know how many there were damaged Il-2's during that raid.

47 ShAP lost 2 crews:

Pilot Ml. Lt. Fedor V. Turin (or Gurin), KiA
Gunner Ml. S-t. Vasili S. Pikanin (KiA)

Pilot Ml. Lt. Vladimir I. Zakharov, KiA
Gunner Ml. S-t Ivan I. Pryakhin, KiA

47 ShAp logbook states:

8 Il-2 came under attack of 8 Fw190 and lost 2 a/c. Both Il-2 were shot up by fighters, and crashed in flames in the sea 8-9 km SW from Libau. Both crew killed.

This two losses almost for sure were victims of Stabsswarm (Stab II./JG54) - claims at 11:46-11:48, ~10km SW from Libau, both Rudorffer and Tangermann claimed 2 Il-2 each, in almost same time and location. So, it could be shared victories to both pilots, or 2 confirmed to Tangermann (and 0 to Rudorffer), or 2 confirmed to Rudorffer (and 0 to Tangermann).

After that, Rudorffer and Tangermann continued chasing Il-2 formation and claimed 9 more Il-2 shot down, with actual loss = 0 (number of damaged Il-2 is unknown, but some Il-2 could be damaged by AAA). So, all those 9 claims are pure overclaim.

Note: second claim at 11:53, wich "jumped" far to west, is probably typo of staff cleric.

At 11:54 (when Rudorffer claimed his almost last victory) Lt. Thyben claimed Il-2 (not painted on the map below) in location of first Tangermann+Rudorffer claims. But it is for pure overclaim, as we knowm that both Il-2 were lost during first engagement.

Also, 2 Il-2 were claimed by Obfhr. Ludwig Böes of 2./JG54, a half-an-hour later, and far to west from location. I have no idea, who were those Il-2 (no losses or even other operations in that area on that day). So, seems that both claims of Böes are pure overclaim.



There was a second raid on that day (som hours later), but it is another story.

[Juha]

Wow Evgeny
Excellent work!!!
Once again one sees how important maps are for understanding of military history.

Juha

[Rob Romero]

Juha I completely disagree!

Evgeny next time we EXPECT to see nothing less than a fully animated version!

Rob Romero

Btw Evegny, how did you make the map.

Look for a PM from me.