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  #21  
Old 1st September 2011, 08:08
Evgeny Velichko's Avatar
Evgeny Velichko Evgeny Velichko is offline
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Re: Libau 28 October 1944

Rob - call it magic

Seriously, I used grids rom TW lists, then I used LUMA (exellent thing - thx Andreas!!!), and used PhotoShop, when I merged all maps to one comprehencive map.
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  #22  
Old 1st September 2011, 16:50
yogybär yogybär is offline
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Re: Libau 28 October 1944

Nice map, looks like a lot of work..

Evgeny, do you know where 47 ShAP and 8 GvShAP were based? 47 maybe at Palanga, where there was an airfield (with 51MTAP IIRC)?
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  #23  
Old 1st September 2011, 19:59
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Re: Libau 28 October 1944

Yes, Palanga.
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  #24  
Old 4th July 2013, 14:51
Andrew Arthy Andrew Arthy is offline
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Re: Libau 28 October 1944

Gentlemen,

I’ve been working on my Air War Courland book in the last month, and remembered this interesting thread.

Care should be taken in describing the Courland claims of Rudorffer and his Jagdgeschwader 54 colleagues as “pure overclaims” and the like. As far as I can tell, there were quite catastrophic Soviet losses over Courland on this day, and on several of the other ‘big days’ for J.G. 54.

Here is my count for 28 October 1944, taking into account some, but not all, of the Soviet records:

IL-2: 20 failed to return, nine force landed
Yak-9: 2 failed to return
Yak-3: 2 failed to return, one force landed
Airacobra: 4 failed to return
Total: 28 failed to return, 10 force landed

Several of those aircraft initially reported as “failed to return” had actually force landed, and the crews returned to base later.

German claims for the day were:
26 aircraft destroyed by fighters
31 aircraft destroyed by anti-aircraft gunners (given the times and locations, I suspect some were double claims)
Total: 57 aircraft destroyed

So pretty acceptable victory claims by the Germans. I’d like to credit Andrey Kuznetsov for kindly digging into the Russian documents for me.

On another matter, the old myth of 44 aerial victories by J.G. 54 on 14 December 1944, and 56 by the unit on 15 December 1944, should be killed once and for all (it seems to have started with Werner Haupt’s Army Group North). Total German claims for those days were as follows:

14 December 1944
J.G. 54: 22
Anti-aircraft gunners: 22

15 December 1944
J.G. 54: 28
Anti-aircraft gunners: 28

For a little taste of my Courland research, please download the Christmas in Courland eArticle, available here: http://www.airwarpublications.com/e-articles

All the best,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications – www.facebook.com/airwarpublications
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  #25  
Old 4th July 2013, 16:01
Paul Thompson Paul Thompson is offline
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Re: Libau 28 October 1944

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Arthy View Post
Gentlemen,

I’ve been working on my Air War Courland book in the last month, and remembered this interesting thread.

Here is my count for 28 October 1944, taking into account some, but not all, of the Soviet records:

IL-2: 20 failed to return, nine force landed
Yak-9: 2 failed to return
Yak-3: 2 failed to return, one force landed
Airacobra: 4 failed to return
Total: 28 failed to return, 10 force landed

Several of those aircraft initially reported as “failed to return” had actually force landed, and the crews returned to base later.
Hello Andrew,

Thank you for your information, I'm looking forward to the book! I think it's appropriate to mention here that Osprey's recent "Pe-2 Guards Units" book by Khazanov and Medved has a table on page 88 entitled "Official Soviet Statistics for Operation Arcturus". For the 28th, it reads:

Date 28 October Sorties 142 Il-2s 70 Pe-2s 25 Losses 7 Results 1 transport

As you can see, the reported losses are far lower than the ones listed by you based on Andrey's sources. Could you or Andrey explain why these "official statistics" I quoted above do not reflect reality? Unfortunately, Khazanov and Medved cite no source, as always in Osprey publications.

Regards,

Paul Thompson
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  #26  
Old 4th July 2013, 16:19
Andrew Arthy Andrew Arthy is offline
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Re: Libau 28 October 1944

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the response. I should emphasise that I'm only in the early stages of matching up the records of the two sides, and my German information is much more complete than my Soviet information.

That said, my loss figures come from the operational reports of 3.VA, plus the VVS KBF figures that Andrey Kuznetsov provided earlier in this thread, so there can be no doubt about them.

3.VA alone undertook 614 sorties on 28 October, so I'm not sure which units are referred to in the Osprey book.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com
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  #27  
Old 4th July 2013, 19:31
Paul Thompson Paul Thompson is offline
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Re: Libau 28 October 1944

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Originally Posted by Andrew Arthy View Post
Hi Paul,

Thanks for the response. I should emphasise that I'm only in the early stages of matching up the records of the two sides, and my German information is much more complete than my Soviet information.

That said, my loss figures come from the operational reports of 3.VA, plus the VVS KBF figures that Andrey Kuznetsov provided earlier in this thread, so there can be no doubt about them.

3.VA alone undertook 614 sorties on 28 October, so I'm not sure which units are referred to in the Osprey book.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com
Hello Andrew,

You’re welcome. I hope that others can help you fill out the Russian side of the story!

I suspected that your data covered a broader set of events than the Pe-2 book, so I’ll provide the data from that book below for clarity:

10 October – 10 Pe-2 and 3 Yak-9 shot down, 5 of the Pe-2 crews killed, Capt Yuriy Kozhevnikov of 12 GvBAP landed behind enemy lines and was killed while crossing the frontline, his crew evaded successfully.

27 October 130 56 32 Losses 10 Results 1 tanker
28 October 142 70 25 Losses 7 Results 1 transport
30 October 148 68 30 Losses 15 Results 2 transports
14 December 175 83 27 Losses 16 Results 6 transports and 1 tanker
22 December 180 74 26 Losses 14 Results 3 transports
Totals 775 351 140 Losses 62 Results 12 transports and 2 tankers

The table is clearly incomplete, for example the 15 December raid is not mentioned at all. Do you have the numbers for 15 December, by any chance? Comparing the figures with Andrey’s post, I infer that the sorties and losses above refer only to VVS KBF missions, restricted to attacks on Liepaja on the dates mentioned in the report. Given these restrictions, the overall Soviet losses must have been much higher, as you described.

Regards,

Paul Thompson
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  #28  
Old 4th July 2013, 21:39
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Re: Libau 28 October 1944

Be careful with Khazanov's research and recheck it. I've found him switching days a few times in his 1941 books to make the Germans look bad when the facts would have done so from other times.
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  #29  
Old 4th July 2013, 23:38
Paul Thompson Paul Thompson is offline
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Re: Libau 28 October 1944

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Originally Posted by Nokose View Post
Be careful with Khazanov's research and recheck it. I've found him switching days a few times in his 1941 books to make the Germans look bad when the facts would have done so from other times.
Hello Nokose,

Warning understood, but I have no way of checking Khazanov, unfortunately, apart from appealing to the collective knowledge of this forum's members. For an example of how Khazanov can bend facts, see Laurent Rizzotti's post from last year - http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showpo...9&postcount=17

The key quote is "Khazanov and Medved are close to truth for [German] East Front losses in this period, but their figures included damaged and destroyed aircraft."

Regards,

Paul Thompson
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  #30  
Old 5th July 2013, 02:04
Andrew Arthy Andrew Arthy is offline
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Re: Libau 28 October 1944

Hi Paul,

I'd say you might be right about the figures referring only to the VVS KBF. Regarding 15 December 1944, Pe-2s of the 3.VA bomber units flew 151 sorties.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.facebook.com/airwarpublications
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