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  #1  
Old 24th December 2014, 16:55
sidney sidney is offline
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11.(N)/LG 2 vs. 10.(N)/JG 26

Dear All,

Recently I procured Henry L. de Zeng IV and Douglas G. Stankey book Bomber Units of the Luftwaffe 1933-1945, Vol.2, (Ref.1) which was published a couple of years after Jochen Prien, Gerhard Stemmer and others book Jagdflieger Verbande der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934-1945, Teil 2, (Ref.2).

There the former book gives the 11.(N)/LG 2 night-fighting Staffel date of formation as 1 August 1939, and dissolution as 18 February 1940, when it was renamed 11.(N)/JG 2, without mentioning 10.(N)/JG 26 at all. The authors also stated that the aforementioned is not in line with the latter reference, which gives the date of 11.(N)/LG 2 dissolution as 1 (or early) September 1939, when the Staffel was renamed 10.(N)/JG 26.

Since I do not have the access to my books at present, I used the 10.(N)/JG 26 data from here http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...wader/JG26.htm and here http://ww2.dk/air/jagd/jg26.htm , the former web reference quotes Prien, Stemmer and others series of books as the primary source of reference.

What I found is that the two authoritative books differ in almost every detail to the point that one might think that these two auxiliary night-fighting Staffeln were completely separate entities, as follows:

Ref.1:
11.(N)/LG 2;
26.08.-14.12.39, Köln-Ostheim, Bf 109 D-1
15.12.1939-18.02.1940, Jever, Bf 109 D-1 - renamed 11.(N)/JG 2

Ref.2:
10.(N)/JG 26;
01.09.-12.11.1939, Bonn-Hangelar, Ar 68 E, Bf 109 D-1
12.11.-09.12.1939, Stade, Ar 68 E, Bf 109 D-1
09.12.1939-18.02.1940, Jever, Ar 68 E, Bf 109 D-1 - renamed 11.(N)/JG 2

The search for 11.(N)/LG 2 on TOCH returned little results. Could someone, perhaps even the authors, shed some light on the above? As a sort of contribution I herewith attach photos from an expired eBay auction, taken via LEMB, which show a mocked dogfight between two 10.(N)/JG 26 or 11.(N)/LG 2 aircraft. The owl emblem on the engine cowling of "White 10+N" can be discerned, while there seems to be another emblem under the aircraft windscreen - note that the latter emblem's position under the windscreen seemingly excludes the JG 2 Richthofen emblem, which was generally positioned under the cockpit in case of IV.(N)/JG 2.

Any assistance in this respect will be highly valued.

Regards,
Sinisa

Last edited by sidney; 3rd November 2015 at 20:31.
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Old 24th December 2014, 18:18
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is offline
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Re: 11.(N)/LG 2 vs. 10.(N)/JG 26

Hi Sidney (Sinisa?),

Great question. Here is the source material I used for the little one paragraph mini-history of 11.(N)/LG 2:


Quote:
Ries-Lw.Story:173; Tessin-Band XIV; Balke-KG2/v.1:391; J.Prien-JG 77:125; C.Shores-Fledgling Eagles:172.
I had to rely on these published sources - some of them quite old - because I could not find any primary documentation for this Staffel, which only existed for 6 months, never left the Reich Heimat and therefore had no Feldpostnummer which could be used to trace its lineage. Of the 5 authors noted above, 4 are or were acclaimed and respected Luftwaffe historians of German nationality.

As most Luftwaffe researchers will agree, there are still - 70 to 75 years later - dozens of little conundrums like this in the greater history of the Luftwaffe. To solve this one, I suspect you would need the flight logs of a number of the unit's pilots plus the Karteikarten cards for 6 to 12 of the personnel who served in the Staffel during its existence.

Should anyone else come along here to provide factual commentary on this subject, be sure to ask them to furnish full details on their sources.

It would be nice to see this thread develop fresh information and finally put the conflicting details about 11.(N)/LG 2 to bed.

L.
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Old 24th December 2014, 19:06
sidney sidney is offline
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Re: 11.(N)/LG 2 vs. 10.(N)/JG 26

Hi Larry,

Thank you for your exhaustive reply to my query on the 11.(N)/LG 2 vs. 10.(N)/JG 26 thread. It is highly valued.

I believe that to a certain degree I could understand difficulties that you and other acclaimed authors are facing in finding the primary material for the semi-autonomous Staffel-size units such as this one, which existed only briefly at the beginning of WW2.

I can only hope that someone will come forward and provide factual commentary on this subject supported with the fully disclosed sources.

If this thread manages to bring some fresh information on the 11.(N)/LG 2, that will be a nice end of the year closure on the TOCH.

Best Regards,
Sinisa aka Sidney
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Old 26th December 2014, 07:03
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Andy Mitchell Andy Mitchell is offline
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Re: 11.(N)/LG 2 vs. 10.(N)/JG 26

Guys,

Here are some additional references fro you on this subject

1. Holm - 10. (Nacht)/JG26 was formed 1.9.39 in Bonn-Hangelar, apparently from 11.(N)/LG2.

2. Aders (History of the German Night Fighter Force) - p13 - 10(N)./JG 26 at Bonn-Hangelar (from 1./LG 1 undrer Oblt. Steinhoff)

3. Caldwell - JG 26 War Diary - 10(N)JG 26 was formed at Bonn-Hangelar with the mission of "night flak support". It was commanded by Oblt. Johannes Steinhoff, who transferred in from an experimental night fighting staffel, 1(N)./LG 1.

No separate mention on Holm for 1./LG 1 and no mention in Bomber Units of the Luftwaffe v2 (de Zeng and Stankey) either.
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Old 26th December 2014, 15:23
sidney sidney is offline
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Re: 11.(N)/LG 2 vs. 10.(N)/JG 26

Andy,

Thank you for the additional references. I will try and comment on the first reference.

From the Bibliography listed on his website, it would appear that Michael Holm was fully aware of references No. 2 and 3, as follows:

Aders, Gebhard: History of the German Night Fighter Force, 1917-1945; Jane's Publishing Company, London, 1979
Caldwell, Donald: The JG26 war diary, 2 vols.; Grub Street, London, 1996 - 1998

I can only suspect that in his reference he ultimately opted for Prien, Stemmer and others book, JFV der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934-45, Vol.2. The key word here again is "apparently".

Another reference on the web can be found here http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...wader/JG26.htm . This one also referred to Prien/Rodeike/Stemmer/Bock, Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945, mehrere Bände.

Regards,
Sinisa
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Old 28th December 2014, 14:58
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: 11.(N)/LG 2 vs. 10.(N)/JG 26

Sinisa/Larry

There is one other, more modern (secondary) source, Die Deutsche Luftwaffe, Zerstörer und Nachtjagdverbände Teil 2 by Meyer/Stipdonk.

They state
11.(NJ)/LG 2: Formed at the end of May or early June 1939.
Redesignated 10.(NJ)/JG 26 in September 1939.
Staffelkapitän: Johannes Steinhoff May/June 1939 - 1 Sept 1939
Again redesignated as 11.(N)/JG 2 on 3 Feb 1940
Staffelkapitän: Johannes Steinhoff 3 Feb 1940 - 25.6.1940
Finally redesignated 5./NJG 1

So as far as they are concerned 11.(NJ)/LG 2, 10.(N)/JG 26 and 11.(N)/JG 2 are one and the same unit at various times during appx one year. Steinhoff was obviously in command the whole time!
Not bad, even by Luftwaffe standard...

It means that basically both ref 1 and 2 are correct, but none tells the complete story. What do you think?

Cheers
Stig

PS: I also believe we can drop all LG 1 connections with any night fighter unit. Meyer/Stipdonk does not mention it and neither does Peter Taghon
Furthermore Johannes Steinhoff has nothing to do with that unit either
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Old 28th December 2014, 19:33
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Andreas Brekken Andreas Brekken is offline
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Re: 11.(N)/LG 2 vs. 10.(N)/JG 26

Hi, all

I have this topic on my list of questions I am going to investigate on my next trip to the BA/MA in April.

Will post any findings here.

Regards,
Andreas B
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Old 29th December 2014, 11:13
sidney sidney is offline
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Re: 11.(N)/LG 2 vs. 10.(N)/JG 26

Post No.6: Stig, thank you for the additional reference. I have the quoted Meyer-Stipdonk book, albeit unfortunately not at hand.

I would agree with you that both Ref. 1 and Ref. 2 from Post No.1 commence from the same premise (i.e. 11.(NJ)/LG 2), and arrive at the same conclusion (i.e.,11.(N)/JG 2). However, in their way to get there, they differ significantly, and we are trying to find out why.

Post No.7: Andreas, if you could get some information on the above at BA/MA, that will be much appreciated. April 2015 is not that far in the future after all.

Regards,
Sinisa
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Old 20th July 2016, 23:28
sidney sidney is offline
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Re: 11.(N)/LG 2 vs. 10.(N)/JG 26

Just remembered this inconclusive thread... was there any update on the subject from BA/MA that I somehow missed?
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Old 22nd July 2016, 11:53
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Andreas Brekken Andreas Brekken is offline
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Re: 11.(N)/LG 2 vs. 10.(N)/JG 26

Hello, all!

Finally had a little time to start looking into this.

The only concrete I have this far (still working my way through the literally thousands of documents ordered after my last visit to BA/MA...) but:

For the strength returns of August 26th 1939, the following units seems to be denoted as night fighters (later in the returns the letter 'N' besides a unit denotes that they are to receive aircraft with the N variant engine, but at this stage I think my assumption is valid):

11./L.G.2 commanded by the Lw.Lehr.Div. stationed at Köln-Ostheim with Bf 109D
10./J.G.2 commanded by Lfl.Kdo.1 stationed at Döberitz with Bf 109D
10./J.G.72 commanded by Lfl.Kdo.3 stationed at Mannheim with Ar 68
11./J.G.72 commanded by Lfl.3. stationed at Böblingen with Ar 68

For the strength returns of September 2nd 1939 we have the following situation:

11./J.G.26 commanded by the Lw.Lehr.Div. stationed at Köln-Ostheim with Bf 109D (here L.G.2 is overstricken with pencil and J.G.26 is written on top)
10./J.G.2 commanded by Lfl.Kdo.1 stationed at Döberitz with Bf 109D
10./J.G.72 commanded by Lfl.Kdo.3 stationed at Mannheim with Ar 68
11./J.G.72 commanded by Lfl.3. stationed at Böblingen with Ar 68

So - it is possible that they forgot to write the new Staffel number (and I have to look at consequent reports for more information) - but I think it is no doubt that the 11./L.G.2 became 11./J.G.26 (or maybe 10./J.G.26 - time will show after I get to later reports).

As this change was done in close relation to the mobilisation it could be source of a Staffel numbering confusion.

More to follow!

Regards,
Andreas B
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Last edited by Andreas Brekken; 22nd July 2016 at 16:06. Reason: Added aircraft type for 11./J.G.72
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