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  #31  
Old 24th January 2015, 15:54
GuerraCivil GuerraCivil is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe pilots shot while parachuted

Well, to put it in analysis:

1) Japanese: attacking parachuting enemies was a systematic practice endorsed by the doctrine of "aerial extermination action". The so-called Bushido code with "no mercy, no prisoners" attitude played also a part, but it was a secondary motive. Most important was the doctrine of "aerial extermination action" which considered enemy pilots as an enemy asset to be eliminated whenever possible.

2) Americans: attacking parachutig enemies often, but probably not a systematic practice as much as with Japanese.

3) Germans: at the Western front individual cases, at the Eastern front quite common practice but perhaps not as systematic as it was by Japanese. The nature of warfare at the German Eastern Front was more ruthless than at the Western Front, because ideological hate propaganda of both sides was more strong and demonised the enemy much more. One German officer described the Western Front being a "waiting room for hell" whereas the Eastern Front was the hell itself.

4) British/Commonwealth pilots: seems not to have been systematic practice, but individual cases existed.

5) Others: Polish - motivated by the revenge spirit to make frequent attacks? Italians - not known cases as far as I know.

But difficult to tell when it comes to individual cases - anyone can have a moment of anger which will lead to action to be regretted later and not repeated after second thoughts. To some other person it is maybe just the crossing of the decisive line after which the similar action is repeated always when given a chance.

One should also make a difference between parachuting paratroopers and parachuting pilots when they have been shot from the ground. The former are "fair game" as it makes reason to eliminate them well before they get to the ground and take armed organized action. The parachuting enemy pilot is not so much threat - he is a individual combatant knocked out of air combat and can be taken as a POW without much difficulty.
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  #32  
Old 25th January 2015, 17:47
digedag1 digedag1 is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe pilots shot while parachuted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruediger Kaufmann View Post
Hi all,

here are two more exsamples.
See copy of shot down reports and translation.

Best regards
Rüdiger
------

Uffz Emil Enenkel
Shot down at 16.8 1944. Made emergency landing. After jumped out of plane shot down by American Fighter by maschine gun fire. Dead. Grave located at Halberstadt, military cemetery grave5..


Uffz. Wilhelm Mertens
Shot down in airfight at 8.8.1944. Jumped out by parachute and shot by American fighters. Extremely Wounded. Died in Hospital at Salzwedel. Grave will be reported later

Hi Ruediger,
I have send you a PM.
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  #33  
Old 25th January 2015, 20:05
ClinA-78 ClinA-78 is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe pilots shot while parachuted

Hello

I am still puzzled by the info I read from Roba's book ("la guerre aérienne dans la région de Charleroi") when he wrote Oblt. Georg-Peter EDER (5./JG 2) was shot up after his bailout (from Bf 109 G-6 WNr.20733) on the 5th November 1943. His staffel transfered this day from Deelen to Creil and met some Spitfire in the Binche area (Belgium). Eder was wounded and sent to Jemappes Lazarett I./617 before being moved to Paris-Clichy for recovering and came back to combat in February '44.

Does anymore have a proof EDER was shot down this day (and gunfired beneath his chute)? Or his loss was more a matter of a technical problem ? It seems there is no allied claim which may match this.

Sorry to insert this unverified fact in this topic. I can open a post following moderator suggestion.

Best regards

ClinA-78
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  #34  
Old 25th January 2015, 20:34
Leo Etgen Leo Etgen is offline
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Luftwaffe pilots shot while parachuted

Hi ClinA-78

Prien has the following for the incident that you are interested in:

5 November 1943: Oberleutnant Georg-Peter Eder, Staffelführer of 5./JG 2, wounded in Bf 109 G-6 (W.Nr. 20 733), crashed near Mons, Belgium due to engine damage, baled out, 100%

As you can see there is no mention of aerial combat. I hope this helps.

Horrido!

Leo
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  #35  
Old 25th January 2015, 21:22
ClinA-78 ClinA-78 is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe pilots shot while parachuted

Story closed! Thanks you Leo.

ClinA-78
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  #36  
Old 26th January 2015, 11:19
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Alfred.MONZAT Alfred.MONZAT is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe pilots shot while parachuted

@GuerraCivil : Do you know the name (or any other details) of the JG 27 pilot killed by Caldwell ?

Regards

Alfred
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  #37  
Old 26th January 2015, 16:58
G.R.Morrison G.R.Morrison is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe pilots shot while parachuted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfred.MONZAT View Post
Do you know the name (or any other details) of the JG 27 pilot killed by Caldwell?
I believe this was Ofw. Hermann Förster of the 2./JG 27, KIA 14.Dec. 1941, 15km NW of Tmimi.

GRM
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  #38  
Old 26th January 2015, 19:58
GuerraCivil GuerraCivil is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe pilots shot while parachuted

Yes, it was the case mentioned by G.R. Morrison in previous post.

Wiki mentions that German pilot shot on 4.7.1941 Caldwell´s friend Donald Munro on parachute. And then the usual motive of revenge is offered as an explanation, although Caldwell´s own explanation was: "... there was no blood lust or anything about it like that. It was just a matter of not wanting them back to have another go at us. I never shot any who landed where they could be taken prisoner."

But the above is just more or less reliable wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_Caldwell

According to German sources (JG 27) they did not intentionally attacked parachuted enemy pilots even if these were descending over their own territory. At least the commanders of JG 27 said that they were strongly against such practice and made it clear also to those under their command. To my knowledge attacks against parachuted enemy pilots were not commonplace practice in the airwar over Norht Africa between Allied and Axis pilots, but maybe I have not enough knowledge of this matter.

Last edited by GuerraCivil; 26th January 2015 at 23:35.
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  #39  
Old 26th January 2015, 20:37
GuerraCivil GuerraCivil is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe pilots shot while parachuted

When it comes to German Eastern Front, both sides accused each other of being the first to attack parachuted pilots. A classical case of one word vs. another word. Claiming that the enemy was the one who pulled the trigger first and is therefore more to be blamed. Revenge was more or less justified motive to do the very same.

Anyway this raises much controversiality and the attacks against parachuting airmen have been considered repugnant by many veteran pilots in their memoirs and statements. If it would have been totally OK for them, we would read memoirs and combat reports claiming openly "full kills" with both the enemy plane and parachuted pilot eliminated in this style: "I did shoot the Spitfire/Messerschmitt down, but the enemy pilot escaped by bailing out. Fortunately my wingman took care of him". But such memoirs and statements are not to be read by us. If anything is mentioned, it is presented usually as "justified revenge". Very few German, American, British and Commonwealth pilots have openly admitted killing parachuted enemy. Not such talk also in "minor" European pilot memoirs (Italian, Romanian, Finnish etc.) - Also Soviet accounts - as far as I know them - seem to be quiet about it if they shot parachuted enemy pilots, but yes willingly pointing to the Germans as the ones who shot helpless Soviet airmen on parachute. I know only one Soviet combat report in which the killing of parachuting enemy airman is admitted, but that combat report came to the light only after the Soviet archives were opened also to Western European researchers.

Only Japanese seemed to be open about this in their wartime combat reports. Maybe a difference of culture - for many Western pilots it was something quite repugnant and something that needed at least good explanation (revenge or other "justified" motive), for flying samurais it seemed to be totally OK and no further explanations were needed. It was even important to mention in Japanese combat reports that not only the enemy planes, but also the parachuting enemy pilots had been "eliminated" (=killed from further fighting). Japanese themselves flew often without parachute and if they were shot down over enemy territory, they went down with the flaming plane without trying to rescue themselves. Parachute was to be employed only if there was a chance to avoid being taken POW. Of all the "Westerners" the Soviets (Russians are Europeans and have clearly European culture, so Westerners) had the most similar mentality - one who surrendered to be a POW was considered a traitor. And "taran" = ramming attacks were common and highly regarded by both Japanese and Soviets.

However after the lost war killing of parachuting enemy pilots was something that even Japanese understood that it was controversial for many (Western) people and then there was a need to explain/justify it or even better to be totally quiet about it. Did even the most famous Japanese ace celebrities kill parachuted enemies? Looking for general practice of IJA/IJN air forces it seems very likely, but the survived aces did not want to talk about it after the war.

Last edited by GuerraCivil; 27th January 2015 at 13:48.
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  #40  
Old 27th January 2015, 18:41
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Re: Luftwaffe pilots shot while parachuted

I would be skeptical to assign the evidence of a shot up German pilot corpse to being shot up in his chute. I have seen a lot of combat film showing heavy strikes in the cockpit area, and shooting continuing at the pilot was trying to bail out.

In a dogfight, the idiot that hangs around to get a shot at a German flier is setting himself up the be shot down himself.

Hartmann recounts his fear that the four Mustangs that chased him down would kill him in his chute - but of course it didn't happen.

There were a lot of pilots strafed while crash landing after being shot down.
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