Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Allied and Soviet Air Forces

Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 3rd November 2017, 15:05
bearoutwest bearoutwest is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 189
bearoutwest is on a distinguished road
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF

Hi Faenor,

It wouldn't surprise me if I am mixing up details on Paul Richey. It's been at least 10 years since I read the book properly, and my copy is currently in a box while I change out a few rooms in the house.

To my view, I think the individual aircraft codes might be in the wrong place for No 1 or 73 Squadrons. Two other RAF squadrons - No 85 and No 87 - were also based in France as part of the air component of the BEF. They also had the full rudder tricolour, and coincidentally neither squadron made much use of the regular RAF fin-flash (a lot of photos of the 1939-1940, pre-Battle of Britain period show the 85 Sqn hexagon or the 87 Sqn arrowhead located where the RAF type fin-flash would normally be). The full squadron codes & individual aircraft letter locations are more consistent with either of these squadrons.

I think there is a good possibility that what appears as a thin hexagon in one of your linked photos may be a shadow from a cut out hexagon or part of a cut out (i.e. souvenired) arrowhead marking. What do you think?

I wonder if anyone knows if 85 Sqn or 87 Sqn lost and aircraft 'G' in France in 1940?

...geoff
__________________
- converting fuel into noise.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 3rd November 2017, 16:41
bearoutwest bearoutwest is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 189
bearoutwest is on a distinguished road
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF

....answering my own question:
From Peter Cornwell's "Battle of France - Then and Now":
19-May-1940 (p.321), notes that 87 Sqn Hurricane P2819 LK-G was badly damaged in the control wires and main longerons (fuselage structure) during air combat with Bf109s. The aircraft was repairable but abandoned (I assume at 87 Sqn's base Lille-Marcq ).

Cross referencing with Rawlings' "Fighter Squadrons of the R.A.F." :
87 Sqn is recorded as operating a Hurricane I - LK-G P2829. Perhaps a typo?

Your thoughts?

...geoff
__________________
- converting fuel into noise.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 3rd November 2017, 19:00
Graham Boak Graham Boak is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Lancashire, UK
Posts: 1,457
Graham Boak is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF

As the fin flash was not adopted until May 10th 1940, it's no surprise that most photos of the squadrons in France lack this feature.

Pictures I can find of 85 and 87 Sq aircraft in this period do not have the rudder stripes, but there is at least one of an 85 Sq aircraft with both narrow fin stripes and the hexagon.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 4th November 2017, 03:31
bearoutwest bearoutwest is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 189
bearoutwest is on a distinguished road
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF

Hello Graham,

I don't claim any great knowledge on the subject, and have to rely on the accuracy of caption writers. So I try and find sources which have a higher level of reliability. Have a look at the following linked photos and tell me what you think. If you can shed further light on their accuracy, that would be a good thing.

These photos are from the Imperial War Museum collection/photo area. I used a search for: Hawker Hurricanes France 1940.

87 Sqn, arrowhead marking, full rudder tricolour:
HU112434, " Hawker Hurricane Mk Is of No. 87 Squadron at Lille-Seclin, France 1940."
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205259684

87 Sqn, no arrowhead, no fin-flash or rudder stripes
HU112449, "Hawker Hurricane Mk I L2047 'LK-H' of No. 87 Squadron nosed over after a landing accident at Lille-Seclin, France 1940."
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205259683

87 Sqn, arrowhead marking, no rudder stripes
HU112435, "Hawker Hurricane Mk I 'LK-Q' of No. 87 Squadron after a crash-landing, France 1940."
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205259687

73 Sqn, full rudder tricolour, single aircraft letter on tail side of roundel
C1241, "Two Hawker Hurricane Mark Is of No. 73 Squadron RAF coming in to land at Rouvres. The nearest 'S', is being flown by Pilot Officer P V Ayerst."
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205064961

I think these are the 85 Sqn photos you referred to before, with narrow (smaller fin flash) and hexagon:
C1519, "Ground crew and armourers refill ammunition belts with .303 bullets by Hawker Hurricane Mark Is of No. 85 Squadron RAF at Lille-Seclin."
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205207588
C1518
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205207586

1 Sqn, full rudder tricolour, single aircraft letter on tail side of roundel
C1234, "Hawker Hurricane Mark I, N2358 'Z', of No. 1 Squadron RAF is refuelled while undergoing an engine check at Vassincourt."
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205207569

That first link, is the only photo I have seen recently, of an 85 or 87 Sqn with full rudder stripes. (Mind you, I haven't also been searching recently.... but I have not seen that published elsewhere before.)

Your thoughts?

...geoff

Additional photo, captioned as 615 Sqn Hurricane suffering bomb blast damage at Kenley 18-August-1940. (Found during general internet search, so accuracy of caption unverified.)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warplanesnu...uadron_hawker/
__________________
- converting fuel into noise.

Last edited by bearoutwest; 4th November 2017 at 04:21. Reason: After-thought, additional photo
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 4th November 2017, 08:07
Faenor's Avatar
Faenor Faenor is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Czech republic
Posts: 221
Faenor is on a distinguished road
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF

Quote:
Originally Posted by bearoutwest View Post
....answering my own question:
From Peter Cornwell's "Battle of France - Then and Now":
19-May-1940 (p.321), notes that 87 Sqn Hurricane P2819 LK-G was badly damaged in the control wires and main longerons (fuselage structure) during air combat with Bf109s. The aircraft was repairable but abandoned (I assume at 87 Sqn's base Lille-Marcq ).

Cross referencing with Rawlings' "Fighter Squadrons of the R.A.F." :
87 Sqn is recorded as operating a Hurricane I - LK-G P2829. Perhaps a typo?

Your thoughts?

...geoff
Hi Geoff,

from my knowledge, all Hawker Hurricane with serial number started Pxxxx have 3 blade propeller, so this plane we can exclude. But maybe I´m wrong.

In the book American Eagle -part 1 RAF US pilots from Classic publication is this notice : poor old G was sieved with bullets.I can only hope she burned before the Huns laid their rude hands on her.

From my view, this plane is L1679.

Faenor
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 4th November 2017, 08:29
Faenor's Avatar
Faenor Faenor is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Czech republic
Posts: 221
Faenor is on a distinguished road
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF

Hi all,

next photo collection is belgian Hawker Hurricane Mk.I - H27
See on this link:
http://www.modelari.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2145

This plane was damaged during Luftwaffe raid on airfield Schaffen on 10.5. 1940,then was repaired and flew to Le Culet airfield and there abandoned 11.5.1940.

Faenor

Last edited by Faenor; 4th November 2017 at 09:44.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 4th November 2017, 11:29
bearoutwest bearoutwest is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 189
bearoutwest is on a distinguished road
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF

Hi Faenor,

From "British Military Aircraft Serials 1912-1966" by Bruce Robertson (1966 Ed):
P2535 - 3264, Hawker Hurricane I
Built by Gloster Aircraft, 2-blade Watts propeller fitted up to P2681,
3-blade Rotol airscrews fitted from P2682.

Your assessment of 3-bladed prop for P2819 is reasonable. Not definitive, as in other discussions, I have noted an occasional discrepancy with the data in this book, but very, very likely.

I will go through Peter Cornwall's book again and see if there is any mention of 'G' L1679.

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to prove any point, I am just presenting you with what information I have - acting as a "Devil's Advocate" in a manner. If you have other information at hand, or if someone comes up with differing information that points in another direction and hopefully arrives at a reasonable conclusion, then I'm happy to come along for the ride.

Regards, ...geoff
__________________
- converting fuel into noise.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 14th November 2017, 11:49
Faenor's Avatar
Faenor Faenor is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Czech republic
Posts: 221
Faenor is on a distinguished road
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF

Quote:
Originally Posted by bearoutwest View Post
Hi Faenor,

From "British Military Aircraft Serials 1912-1966" by Bruce Robertson (1966 Ed):
P2535 - 3264, Hawker Hurricane I
Built by Gloster Aircraft, 2-blade Watts propeller fitted up to P2681,
3-blade Rotol airscrews fitted from P2682.

Your assessment of 3-bladed prop for P2819 is reasonable. Not definitive, as in other discussions, I have noted an occasional discrepancy with the data in this book, but very, very likely.

I will go through Peter Cornwall's book again and see if there is any mention of 'G' L1679.

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to prove any point, I am just presenting you with what information I have - acting as a "Devil's Advocate" in a manner. If you have other information at hand, or if someone comes up with differing information that points in another direction and hopefully arrives at a reasonable conclusion, then I'm happy to come along for the ride.

Regards, ...geoff
Hi Geoff, if I make mistake or you have different opinion, I will be no angry.

To all - thanks to Nick Beal, who unlock this threads we can continue - and next area will be the other Belgian Hawker Hurricanes.

Faenor
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 14th November 2017, 12:05
Faenor's Avatar
Faenor Faenor is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Czech republic
Posts: 221
Faenor is on a distinguished road
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faenor View Post
Hi all,

next photo collection is belgian Hawker Hurricane Mk.I - H27
See on this link:
http://www.modelari.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2145

This plane was damaged during Luftwaffe raid on airfield Schaffen on 10.5. 1940,then was repaired and flew to Le Culet airfield and there abandoned 11.5.1940.

Faenor
A s I wrote in previous reply, we can continue with photo collection with Belgian Hawker Hurricanes.


Hawker Hurricane Mk. I mark H27 - attached is new photo and this plane
http://www.modelari.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2145
I have question about airfield - can somebody recon this place?




Photos on burned wreck of Hurricane before the hangar:
http://www.modelari.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2151



Photo on 2 burned wrecks of Hurricanes on airfield area - wrecks are completely burned
http://www.modelari.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2152



Photo on 2 wrecks probably with Belgian Gloster Gladiator
http://www.modelari.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2153
This situation is described in this link:
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/gladiator_belgium.htm
One of the Hurricane is with 3 blade propeller - probably 1 of captured RAF machine?


Photo of burned wreck of Hurricane - different machine then other
http://www.modelari.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2154




Photo of 2 burned hurricanes with watts 2 blade propeller - from my perspective, these 2 machine are again Belgian
http://www.modelari.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2155




2 photos on line of destroyed Belgian Fox planes - on the 2nd photo, on the right side of line are 2 hurricanes and from my perspective, these machines looks different like other previous
http://www.modelari.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2156
On this place/airfield I´m searching more info

I hope, that other will have photos of same Belgian hurricanes and can share with all, who are interesting in this topic.

Faenor
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 14th November 2017, 12:27
Bertrand H Bertrand H is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Dijon, FRANCE
Posts: 435
Bertrand H is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF

Hi Geoff


Good selection from IWM; please note that # HU112434 is not taken at Lille / Seclin.

This A / F and environment are flat, flat, flat ....

It is elsewhere

Bertrand
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:03.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2007, 12oclockhigh.net