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  #11  
Old 6th January 2005, 18:24
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Ruy Horta Ruy Horta is offline
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Temper Gentlemen, lets take a step back...

I was kind of happy the see Artie Bob again, since it has been a while!

Somehow its become en vogue to bash TOCH for everything that's bing said in the forum, even by some relatively close to the community, IMHO a real shame...

No reason to ride anyone's tail here, so please act accordingly, or else I will have to instead.
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  #12  
Old 6th January 2005, 20:33
Seaplanes Seaplanes is offline
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I found the following information that may be of help in this case:
Source BA/MA RL 3/1024 Flugzeug-Programm 227 Ausgabe 1, dated January 9, 1945:

Muster Motor Total on order delivered to Planned deliveries
30.11.1944 from 01.12.44
He 219A-0 DB 603A 104 104 nil
He 210A-2 DB 603AA 85 85 nil
He 219A-7 DB 603E 210 nil 210
He 219D-1 213E 5 nil 5

All were produced by the Ernst Heinkel Flugzeug Werke.
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  #13  
Old 6th January 2005, 20:39
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Sorry, this came out completely garbled. It shuld read something like this:
He 219A-0 Engine: DB 603A Total on order: 104. Delivered up to 30.11.44: 104. No further deliveries.

He 219A-2 Engine: DB 603AA. Total on order 85. Delivered up to 30.11.44: 85. No further deliveries.

He 219A-7 Engine: DB603E. Total on order: 210. None delivered
up to 30.11.44. Deliveries to take place from December 1944 to July 1945.

He 219D-1 Engine: 9-213E. Total on order: 5. None delivered up to 30.11.44. Deliveries to take place in December 1944.

I hope this turns out a little better this time.
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  #14  
Old 7th January 2005, 04:08
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He 219 and the DB 603G

Thank you, Seaplanes, for that valuable information. As I went through the English version of Remp's He 219 book, I found reference to the two engine types you mention--the 603AA and 603E, on pg. 104: "According to a message from the RLM GL/C/B2 (no date given), the DB 603 AA powerplant was no longer adequate for production of the He 219 A-2. Effective immediately, this version was to be equipped with the DB 603 E, resulting in the designation He 219 A-7." But then on pg. 110, Remp changes his mind and says: "Now, in January 1945, production of the A-7 finally began, although with the DB 603 G." One would think the book had been written by a committee.

And, to you, Artie, I owe a sincere apology for doubting the information you gave regarding the type of He 219 produced in January 1945. With that apology shall go a steak dinner when we have the opportunity to meet again. In my humble defence, I can say only that I thought you were ragging me because of my adversion to the mention of the use of the 603G with any kind of a/c since that engine never entered production. So, it's become a bit of a red rag to me. Anyway, I do apologize. But, what plants produced such a large number of He 219s in one month?

All the best,
George
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  #15  
Old 8th January 2005, 02:49
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Reconciling the above info with Remp's "He 219" bo

With the posting of Seaplanes' excellent info on He 219 production, I have attempted to reconcile it with the table info in Remp's "He 219." Since some of this is a bit of WAGing, I would welcome comments and criticisms as well as any more info on the subject.

Page 149. He 219 Production Numbers. This table is totally garbled, evident from the fact that no He 219s were accepted by the GAF until the last quarter of 1943. For that period, the US Strategic Bombing Survey gives the following figures: Oct: 7, Nov: 9, Dec. 10, for 26 in that quarter. In 1944 the production was as follows: Jan. 11, Feb. 0, Mar 14, for 25 for the 1st Quarter. Apr. 15, May. 17, Jun. 13, for 45 in the 2nd Quarter. Jul. 16, Aug. 17, Sep. 25, for 58 in the 3rd Quarter. Oct. 18, Nov. 19, Dec. 23, for 60 in the 4th Quarter. This gives a total of 225 a/c accepted during 1943 and 1944. Artie said that 36 a/c were produced in Jan. 45, but beyond that I don't know anything about production in 1945.

Page 149. He 219 Werknummer Summary
I looked at these summaries in conjunction with the loss list of pp. 134, the diary of Eric Brown, and W.Nrs. From "The Captive Luftwaffe" and from "War Prizes." Assuming that the list is correct in its general sense, I would make the following changes.
310 000 - No losses noted, so possibly this series was used for the He 219D-1.
310 100 - A-2 as evidenced by the three diary entries of Eric Brown, and notations on the a/c brought to the UK and USA.
420 000 - Probably for the A-7 with the DB 603E engines.
So, if you change the designations in the loss lists for the 310 100 and beyond to A-2s, and the designations of the A-5s to A-7, the list and W.Nrs. would agree.

Page 137. He 219s taken to England.
290 123 should be 290 126, and is, as noted, an A-2.
310 109, should be an A-2
310 106, should be an A-2.
310 190, should be an A-5/R2. It is the one with V11 on the nose.
310 215, should be an A-2.

Here are figures from the DB engine list of 7.44 on the performance of the DB engines used by the He 219.

DB 603A. Length: 2610mm, Height: 1167mm, Width: 830mm. (B4 fuel)
At sea level.
T/off and emergency (3'): 1750PS, 2700rpm, 1.4ata, 570l/h
Climb and combat (30'): 1580PS, 2500rpm, 1.3ata, 460l/h
At critical altitude of 5.7km
Emergency (3'): 1620PS, 2700rpm, 1.4ata, 530l/h
Climb and combat (30'): 1510PS, 2500rpm, 1.3ata, 460l/h
Emergency power at 10km: 950PS, 2700rpm, .85ata

DB 603AA. Length: 2610mm, Height: 1167mm, Width: 830mm (B4 fuel)
At sea level.
T/off and emergency: 1670PS, 2700rpm, 1.4ata, 550l/h
Climb and combat: 1580PS, 2500rpm, 1.3ata, 460l/h
At critical altitude of 7.3km (emergency), and 7.2km (climb and combat)
Emergency: 1450PS, 2700rpm, 1.4ata, 480l/h
Climb and combat: 1370PS, 2500rpm, 1.3ata, 440l/h
Emergency power at 10km: 1020PS, 2700rpm.

DB 603E. Length: 2706mm, Height: 1167mm, Width: 830mm (B4 fuel)
At sea level.
T/off and emergency: 1800PS, 2700rpm, 1.48ata, 580l/h
Climb and combat: 1575PS, 2500rpm, 1.35ata, 490l/h
At critical altitude of 7.0km (emergency), and 7.1km (climb and combat)
Emergency: 1550PS, 2700rpm, 1.48ata, 510l/h
Climb and combat: 1430PS, 2500rpm, 1.35ata, 460l/h
Emergency power at 10km: 1060PS, 2700rpm.

Be advised that these figures don't always agree exactly with the figures posted in "Mustertafeln und Leistungsschaubilder der deutschen Flugmotoren. Nach dem Stand vom 15.9.44" even though the narratives are both dated in July 1944.

This is the info on the Jumo 213E from the above reference.
Jumo 213E-1; Length (fighter installation): 2536mm, Height: 1140mm (B4 fuel)
At sea level.
T/off and emergency: 1750PS, 3250rpm
Climb and combat: 1580PS, 3000rpm
At critical altitude of 9.8km (emergency), and 9.6km (climb and combat)
Emergency: 1320PS, 3250rpm
Climb and combat: 1270PS, 3000rpm

As I said above, I would welcome any and all comments and criticisms on this because feedback will help us all learn more about the He 219 a/c.
George
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  #16  
Old 8th January 2005, 09:43
Matti Salonen Matti Salonen is offline
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Production of He 219

The U.S Intelligence Service asked 15.6.1945 the Gen.Qu. 6.Abt. to compile a list of German aircraft production 1939-1945. This list was delivered 28.6.1945 to the U.S.
There are a few important notes in the introduction:
"Fuer die Zeit von October 1939 - Dezember 1943 liegen die Produktionszahlen in Form der G.L.-Meldelisten noch vor. Fuer diesen Zeitraum sind daher in nachfolgender Aufstellung die Neubau-, Umbau- und Reparaturzahlen die wirklichen, dagegen sind die durch Gen.Qu. verfuegten Flugzeugzahlen aus den einzelnen Tagesmeldungen erreichen und gegebenenfalls nicht ganz stichhaltig bzw. nicht vollständig. Bei der Errechnung dieser Zahlen ist nach bestem Wissen auf die Schwierigkeiten bei neuauflaufenden Mustern und die gegebenenfalls eingetretenen Auffälle Ruecksicht genommen."...
"Fuer die Zeit von Januar 1944 bis März 1945 liegen keine Industriefertigungsunterlagen mehr vor, sondern nur noch Angaben ueber von der Industrie flugklar (komplettiert) gemeldete Flugzeuge, die teilweise frontklar waren oder aber in Nachruestbetrieben erst frontklar gemacht wurden. Ausserdem sind fuer diesen Zeitraum die tatsächlich der Truppe zugewiesenen Flugzeuge bekannt, so das hier die Industriefertigungszahlen errechnet werden mussten und gegebenefalls nicht völlig stichhaltig sind."...
" Ebenso sind V-Muster teilweise nicht in den Neufertigungszahlen enthalten."

According to this list, the following production figures are given for He 219 (new aircraft):

May 1943: 4
October 1943: 7
January 1944: 11
February 1944 5
March 1944: 11
April 1944: 25
May 1944: 14
June 1944: 16
July 1944: 18
August 1944: 5
September 1944: 27
October 1944: 19
November 1944: 19
December 1944: 25
January 1945: 36
February 1945: 9
March 1945: 17

Best regards,

Matti Salonen
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  #17  
Old 8th January 2005, 14:47
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Production numbers

Having rechecked my sources, I found, that the production numbers Matti gives for the He 219 are perfectly consistent with those given in "Flugzeug Profile Heinkel He 219" on page 12. In addition there are 6 planes rebuilt from scrapped he 219's with no date. These might be the 6 planes, Remp states for second quarter 1945.
What makes me puzzled is the large discrepancy between the Remp-book and "Flugzeug Profile" by Dressel/Griehl for year 1943, where Remp gives a total of 50 planes versus only 11 planes in Flugzeug Profile or Matti's list, and also for 1944, where the difference is similar, but the other way round. How did this discrepancy arise? Interesting is, that despite the different numbers given, both sources get exactly the same total production of 274 planes.
Flugzeug Profile gives the same Werknummern-list as Remp, but of course I agree with George that this can be faulty.
Kind regards
Robert
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  #18  
Old 8th January 2005, 19:19
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He 219 production

Thanks for that info, Matti. The listing I used last evening was for Luftwaffe acceptances by month. But, as you say, Robert, there is a really large difference in the numbers produced and the numbers accepted during 1943 for which I cannot see a ready explanation.

Anyway, excellent material,
George
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  #19  
Old 12th January 2005, 02:43
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You fellas are really splendid!!!
This has been a very enlightening discussion--superb!!!

Glimspur
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  #20  
Old 12th January 2005, 10:40
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He219 discussion

Hello friends,

Studying the history of I.NJG 1 and Venlo airfield for many, I am 1. very interested in the discussion and 2. was really amazed by the mass of details that came up in! As you know the operational start of the He219 was from Venlo airfield in June 1943 and I.NJG 1 had been the sole unit to receive the He219 in sufficient numbers.

The discussion also has learnt me (and hopefully others too!) that how strong someone believes in his own knowledge, others MIGHT have other information too that even could shake your own assumptions. If we all try to RESPECT that chance, big or small, before we put something on paper, we might find what really happened 60 years - I repeat 60 years - ago.
Hoping that Artie and George continue in good spirits for the sake of this forum AND airwar history, all the best

Marcel Hogenhuis
Study Group Venlo Airfield in WW-2
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