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Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

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  #11  
Old 29th August 2006, 14:40
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: VVS Statistical Digest, nice but not full and correct

Hi
Thanks for the link
Russian have made terrible work, but reading some info I see that in fact there are not correct data and full information. I explaine it using one case for example

Важнейшие датыФинляндияРумынияВенгрияИталияВсегоНа 22 июня 1941 года50650490не было1 10

1. Finland has beed already mentioned, this 506 is total (including Bristoll Bulldog and ect training plane) not combat line. There were about 220 military planes on FAF combat units on June 1941. And one but small correction such data should added after 25 VI 1941. Finland had declared war against Russian on 26 VI 1941 after surpirsed Soviet massive air attack (not declared by Russian as case of war). Most of the bombs hit civil tragets not military.

2. Rumanian had put on 22 VI about 240 comabt planes against Soviet Union, the total amount of military plane was about 670 - all planes including very old and outdatd and not servisable too. This is only airforce which in fact did attack Soviets on 22 VI 1941.

3. Hungary - 90. Strange?. I do not know how this come from?
Hungarian Air Deatachment had used about 30-50 planes during the 1-st Hungarian army tour on the East in 1941, In total could bu that Hungarian had used about 90-100 planes between 27 VI till IX 1941.
And last but not least. Hungary had declared war against Soviet on 27 VI 1941 (after strange air attack of unknow planes - bombers and figters). So on 22 VI 41 is better for Hungary "0" as it was still neutral state, not combat country.

I have seen more some mishaps in other data, if concerning VI 1941, anyway thanks for this info for Russian, which is very informative and if one man know other he/she can easly can correct this..

Regards
MirekW
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  #12  
Old 29th August 2006, 16:07
marsyao marsyao is offline
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Re: VVS Statistical Digest

Mirek, as already mentioned, those were Soviet war-time intellegence data, it would be strange those statistic were very accurate
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  #13  
Old 30th August 2006, 17:19
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: VVS Statistical not full credible data

Hi
Problem is that in some other data (war period) you have also under estimated own forces, and for example are excluded all U-2/Po-2 planes (as a non-combat plane). Hundreds of U-2/Po-2 anyway were used from the begining of 22 VI 1941 in military pourpes as a liason/currier "air taxi" plane even by high commanders.
So, all who belive that they got full view about Soviet air potential they have not got this but got about 80-90% of it (comat, military planes).
From these statisctic data are excluded KAE's escadrilas (spooters, laison, ambulance flightss), which had next about 300-600 planes attached to the front, army, corps units.
Anyway this is very hard work to creat such tables.


Second if there data are war data for those, who created them then should better to know that on 22 VI 1941 there were no war between Soviet Union versus Finland or Hungary. So putting the both air power have no sens as on 22 VI 1941.
If do this way also should be added (not included at all) next small air forces of Slovak, Croat, Spain, which had also fought on the Easten Front in 1941 too and later, up to 1944/45. An from 1944 - Estonian , latvian and Rusian KNOR-ROA units.
Slovak had began in June/July 1941, Spain and Croat unit a littel bit later but in November and December 1941 they had fought.
So any way therea are not detail and true data about Axis ally air forces as on 22 VI 1941 as up to the 1945.

Regards
MirekW

PS I do not agree with marsyano "(...)Soviet war-time intellegence data, it would be strange those statistic were very accurate".
You do not know what you are talking about. Read exactly info given under the tables, look at this and read it again carefuly. This is not war-data. Sorry for me not, after the war.

{1}Спецархив ГШ ВС, инв.№ 3570, с.5. «Германская армия во второй мировой войне (в цифрах)», М., Воениздат, 1946, с.39, 67-81.
{2}«Краткий обзор численности, группировки и действий авиации противника в период Отечественной войны 1941-1945 гг.». Главный штаб ВВС, УиРИО, инв.№ 1332, с.25.
{3}Стратегический очерк Великой Отечественной войны 1941-1945 гг., М., Воениздат, 1961, с.364.

</SPAN>#bn {display:block;}#bt {display:block;}

Яндекс.Адреса
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  #14  
Old 30th August 2006, 20:47
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: VVS Statistical Digest, nice but not full and correct

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski
2. Rumanian had put on 22 VI about 240 comabt planes against Soviet Union, the total amount of military plane was about 670 - all planes including very old and outdatd and not servisable too.
That is incorrect.
On June 22, 1941, ARR had directly assigned to the anti-Soviet campaign a total of 253 warplanes (205 serviceable), completed by other airplanes for home defense and secondary duties.
The total number of aircraft assigned more or less to the Eastern Front is 672. [You can find all these data in my book on the Rumanian air force, published by Squadron/Signal, in 1999].
The overall total number of the entire Rumanian air force was, of course, much larger, about 1500 machines.
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  #15  
Old 30th August 2006, 20:52
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: VVS Statistical Digest, nice but not full and correct

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski
Hungarian Air Deatachment had used about 30-50 planes during the 1-st Hungarian army tour on the East in 1941.
Approximately 50 Hungarian warplanes were in the area of the front line in late June 1941.

Quote:
And last but not least. Hungary had declared war against Soviet on 27 VI 1941 (after strange air attack of unknow planes - bombers and figters). So on 22 VI 41 is better for Hungary "0" as it was still neutral state, not combat country.
That is correct. Many people forget that Hungary got involved in the anti-Soviet war only four days after 'Operation Barbarossa' started, following repeated Soviet air incursions and attacks against Hungarian territory and targets.

The only Axis country that was involved in the anti-Soviet war from the very beginning - besides the Germans, of course - was Rumania.
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  #16  
Old 30th August 2006, 22:42
marsyao marsyao is offline
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Re: VVS Statistical Digest

Mirek, yes, there was no war between USSR and Hungary or Finland, but yes, USSR simply considered the war between them and Hungary or Finland was unavoidable, it was just matter of time.
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  #17  
Old 31st August 2006, 10:49
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: VVS Statistical Digest funy discution, :-)

Hi
Thanks for some discution, which begins to look nice and funy, :-)

Yes Bernard you are right about about 672 Rumanian military planes and total about 1500 - in all - which means any kind of wood and metal, which could fly/took off from the ground. This is not a joke.

Resarching the subject of air power in WW II (also in Soviet Russia) for many years I am observing, and undrestanding for me, manipulation very commmon and often used by Soviet-Russia authors.
Shortly they put as a military power (many, many books) only this air forces, which were for example gathered on Western Military District and if it was only servicable planes (flyable) - nonservisable were not included.
In thses datas are sometimes removed planes from next military district, training, civil (GVF/"Aeroflot" - which was transport aviation since June 1941), yought training avition (mostly U-2, UT-2, UT-1, R-5 ect.) and at last but not least NKWD avition "police"/border unit (small but also air forces).

Soviet presenting data about military potential of Romania, Finland, Hungary, ect. very, very often are presenting whole enemy flying/air power (no matter if it was comabt or not combat planes, used on the front). In their statictc tese small air forces look very, very big, and dangerous (as Denes had mentioned Romanian 672 or in all 1500 planes - terrible might of Romanian "military air power" these 1500 planes. Great could say some Russians).

In fact, in combat were used on 22 VI 1941 quite smaller parts, only the most military valuables planes - these 253 in all and 205 servisable ready to take off on 22 VI over Soviet targets - from all 672 miliatry planes servisable/non-servsable. You should also rembert this factor too, not all thses planes took off on 22 VI.
This is important factor (if concerning to power of Romanian Avition) presented/showed in Bernard Denes book about ARR. Such military planes as PZL P.11, P.24, bomber PZL P.23 were not at all used on military mission on 22 VI (later during the war of course were). In fact their real combat value of fighter P.11, 24, bomber P.23 were very low as on summer 1941. Soviet/Russian authors couned them as "similar value" with Me 109 shwoing total Romanian fighter power in own statistic.

In presenting own military power Soviets/Russian have own logic/statistic data, which are not full and complet. Mostly they are using to show power of aviation regiments, without independend air units (there were tens of such independnt escadrils), no show the power of civil air forces, or training school ect. This way, they cutting out quite many flying military potential.

On June 1941 the whole military power of VVS RKKA, not including - NKWD units (small air force of about 300-400 planes or so) and GVF/"Aeroflot" and other civil - had about 24,500 military planes, in whole Soviet Russia (total, including training aviaion, laison ect.).

In general one may said, that Soviet had the air force of about 32.000-32.100 in all flying planes on June 1941 in whole Soviet. From this air power of about 11-13.000, where gathered on 5 Western military district, to be used in Soviet sudden attack on Germany planed on June later on July 1941.
For example in Kiev Special Miliatry District were about 2.060 military planes of which were about 1760 servicable + at least next about 130 were of GVF/"Aerofłot".
From Sovit's statistic are also excluded planes captured during Russian invasion on Poland in 1939 and later invasion on Baltic states. There were a few hundreds captured Polish plane in KSMD (servicable and notservicable - in 1939 (PWS-26, RWD-8, Potez XXV ect.) on Lvov Stanislavov ect airfields.

This should be remembered because, when German very fast captured tens of Soviet assoult airfields, they did not make any difference among captured planes and counted all, what did they find there and were destroyed by German sudden pre-emptive attack on 22 VI 1941.


Summary
When one man wants to show any statistic data could be nice if he/she shows similar standarised values figures for the both side. If he/ she shows on one side semi-true, not full data and compare this with oversized, not credible data of second side, we can not have any true and valuable informatuion about military picture of fighting powers.

Soviet/Russians are "loving" to hide own real power/potentail to minimalise their real military power and oversized enemy figures. Such historical statistic data manipulation/politicy were done over 50 years, almost to the 90-ties. Now we can meet this similar semi-true figures in some works, also printed on the West. Look at - for example - to well know, for some of you, "Black Cross and Red Stars vol. 1".

To marsyao - Data of air powers on 22 VI 1941. Sorry: Finland. Hungary, Slovak, Croat, Spain, Italy conducted no any air war on 22 VI 1941 over Soviet. When one man add this figures for this perticular day, this is total nonsens, and obvious historical/political data's manipulation.

Soviet/Russian also do not presnts data from other miliatry distric like Moscow, Transcaucasian ect., and this is OK for you? Strange Soviet logic/rethoric? In these tables there are lack of data about other air forces fighting on the Eastern Front.


Regards,
Mirek Wawrzynski

PS.
In my work edited in Poland ("Dzien Armagedonu - uprzedzenie "Czerwonego Blizkriegu vol. 1, 2" in: Militaria i Fakty no 4(25)/2004 and 1(26)/2005). I have put these information about Soviet military power on June 1941 in 5 Western Military District, explaining exactly this figures and giving figures for VVS RKKA air military potential. Text only in Polish, no English.
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  #18  
Old 31st August 2006, 12:14
yogybär yogybär is offline
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Re: VVS Statistical Digest

Some points from my side:

1) Afaik, this is the first time that figures about bombers/fighters/sturmo/etc and even model-fine figures are given incl. servicability. Let's praise this!

2) When talking about Tran- & SanAP as well as Aeroflot as "missing", please keep in mind that (medical) transports and Lufthansa are also not counted in german OOB's.

3) Why do you discuss the "spy data" about axis Air power, which for sure must be the least exact of all this data? These pages are meant to show the soviet side... I can find it interesting, how the USSR overestimated FI, RO and HU. Maybe that shows a conservative approach within that espionage organization and/or its inefficiency.

Coming back to 1)

a) I wonder where all the 8700 Pe-2's which were produced have gone (wartime figure).
b) La7: Same thing... only <400 in service on 1.1.45...
c) P39 had a very high servicability in comparison to soviet types in 1945
Also, I find it sad that for 1944, no type-specific data is give. Anyway, I am happy about this huge amount of data, even if it is difficult to digest / compile for my purpose.
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  #19  
Old 31st August 2006, 14:14
Schpam Schpam is offline
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Re: VVS Statistical Digest

WOW! Thanks.

As Yogy said I've been looking for this information for what feels like forever. Further, I deeply appreciate the efforts of those who put it together and made it available to all.

R,
Paul
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  #20  
Old 8th September 2006, 17:00
kalender1973 kalender1973 is offline
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Re: VVS Statistical Digest

Perfect site, thanks Only one major information is missed: VVS personal loss statistic, pilots, flying personal etc. This statistic I could not see even in Krivosheev.
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