Captured P-47 - Beetle

[Clare]

Thought that I would post this here also.

Clare

This airplane is covered in several books and a couple of decal sheets but I seem to get more confused everytime I look at photos.

My first question relates to wing tips. As best I can tell from the photos on page 85 of "Special Missions", it looks like the undersurface of the wing tips are painted. I would expect the color to be Gelb. Also, it looks like the ailerons were not painted Gelb but left Neutral Gray.

The drawings in "Strangers" do not show this nor does the Cutting Edge decal sheet. The Three Guys sheet shows the entire wing tip painted if you get into their fine details.

The other area covers the nose markings. I am inclined to paint the nose ring and the lower and upper cowl panel Gelb. Cutting Edge show the top panel as remaining OD and the book "Strangers..." has these areas painted red.

The final area is the stripes on the tail when the airplane was captured. The photo and drawing in "Special Missions" shows the normal white stripes on the fin and rudder and above and below the horizontal stabilizers and elevators. The book "Strangers" seems to believe that these features were added at a later date when the airplane was repainted for a propaganda film.

Comments please and thank you very much.

Clare

[Peter D Evans]

You might want to look here - http://tinyurl.com/6uoy4

[chuckschmitz]

Did the Germans paint the nose red or yellow? I have a couple of original photos and I can go either way. I have one decal sheet that says red and another that says yellow.

Chuck

[chuckschmitz]

Hi Peter,

the link you posted in 2004 does not work any longer.

[harrison987]

Looking at my original pics...

The entire cowl was painted Yellow. 100%

Underside wing tips color was the same as the rest of the wing.

No stripes on tail

[chuckschmitz]

I was leaning toward yellow and not red. Thanks.

[Modeldad]

At the time of capture, the aircraft would have been marked only with the white IFF marking on nose and empennage. It would not have have had a colored cowl or rudder.

Interestingly, the 355 FG assigned the 358 FS yellow for cowl and rudder. But this was done after march '44 and applied only to the P-51s which the unit received in March of '44.

The cowl does look a different tone than the yellow prop tips, but that may be due to the different yellows.

[Nick Beale]

The only yellow specified in Luftwaffe regulations for captured aircraft not employed on operations was on the outer one-third of the undersides of the wings.

Judging by Roger A. Freeman's "The Mighty Eighth" the yellow on the cowling was the USAAF squadron colour.

[Modeldad]

The only yellow specified in Luftwaffe regulations for captured aircraft not employed on operations was on the outer one-third of the undersides of the wings.

Judging by Roger A. Freeman's "The Mighty Eighth" the yellow on the cowling was the USAAF squadron colour.

But if that was captured in 1943, it predated the order allowing use of bright colors on the cowling for quick ID. The 56th FG was the first unit granted permission in February 1944 to replace the white band on the cowling with bright colors for in-flight inter-squadron recognition. For the 355th FG, colors were not introduced until March of '44.

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
This Tbolt is well covered on the LEMB forum along with several photos.

One from Bill Marshall and the 355th official site.shown in Harrison's post is showing the nose section.
Note the markings under the cockpit area,"Agnes's" and a small artwork(?), this pic is said by Bill to be taken at Steeple Morden in November.
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=322Details are that the inscription under the cockpit was over painted by the Germans, and the white noseband partly over painted in red .
The a/c would not have had the tail band. But star and bar was outlined in red.
Three profiles depicting the different stages of markings is shown on the back cover of "Strangers in a Strange land"vol1.
Alex

[chuckschmitz]

can you post photo 5 from top as a separate photo? Thanks.

chuck

[chuckschmitz]

So Alex only the original white band in red and then later painted yellow?

[sirbob]

I'm in partial agreement with harrison 987 in post #5, who wrote

"The entire cowl was painted Yellow. 100%
No stripes on tail"

But I can see yellow cowling, AND yellow under wing tips and rudder in this selection of photos.

[Modeldad]

Clearly the aircraft was for all intents and purposes repainted by the Luftwaffe. Green Farbton 71?

When captured it would have had white IFF bands on cowl and empennage and oversized national marking under both wings. The cowl band would have been 24 inches, so the remnants under the nose art is what is left.

[drgondog]

At the time of capture, the aircraft would have been marked only with the white IFF marking on nose and empennage. It would not have have had a colored cowl or rudder.

Interestingly, the 355 FG assigned the 358 FS yellow for cowl and rudder. But this was done after march '44 and applied only to the P-51s which the unit received in March of '44.

The cowl does look a different tone than the yellow prop tips, but that may be due to the different yellows.

The red/blue and Yellow squadron markings replaced the all white spinner and cowl band of the 355th FG in November 1944.

[chuckschmitz]

Does indeed look like yellow on the bottom of the wing tips.

[Alex Smart]

Hello all,
To start with those white I'd markings.
These markings were applied in the UK as a result of the suggestion that the Tbolt would perhaps be misidentified as a FW 190.
Markus were applied from Mid 1943.
So I would now suggest that "Beetle" 42-22490 'YF-U' wore these markings when captured.
It is suggested in a post in the LEMB somewhere, that she did not have these markings then.
However if you look at the picture of the wrecked tail of Woerz's ' YF-Y' 42-75045 which crash landed on return from the operation his Tbolt does have the white markings,so it was perhaps the norm at the time in the Squadron and perhaps across the board.

If I recall there was way back an article in "Fly Past" that gave the story and had pictures of the Tbolts of the 355thlost that day(November 7th 1943).
Kossack's 'YF-X' 42-8477 and Watson's 'YF-Z' 42-8629.
"Alabama Bound" 'OS-L' which collided with "On the Ball" 'OS-Q' became Luftwaffe "8+6" iirc.

The National markings(Star& Bars) were at the time blue and white,but it is not known by me at this time if the earlier red outline was completely out of use or if some a/c still wore the red outline.

Wing Star and Bars would most likely be the of the large type as opposed to the earlier smaller kind.

The so called red and/or yellow nose marking applied by the Luftwaffe. Could this be either one or other with difference seen due to the type of film used and state of light when photo was taken ? this is well known with regard to RAF roundels iirc.

Also when the a/c was repainted for the propaganda film the colours would have been of the original unless they had acquired captured British/American supplies.

At some stage the rudder seems to have been painted in a similar colour to the colour on the engine cowling, perhaps it was at that time that the undersides of the outer wing were also painted, so I expect the colour to have been a Luftwaffe yellow. Maybe the codes 'YF-U' were also reapplied at this time in the same colour ?

Enough to mull over for now.
Sun is shinning so I'm off for a cool drink and chock ice.

Alex

[Alex Smart]

Just to add to this 'YF-U'.
'YF-U' 42-8631 was lost on the 29th November 1943, pilot became a POW.MACR 1284.
Same day 'YF-L' "Slugger" 42-22484 was lost ,its pilot also became a POW. MACR 1285.
Another 'YF-U' was lost from the 355th FG on the 30th December 1943,pilot however was killed on this occasion, MACR 1867.Also that day 'YF-M' 42-8526 was also lost, again pilot was killed, MACR 1868.
Alex

[Modeldad]

Yes, it was late October when the 355th FG began to use squadron colors on the rudder and nose.

The white IFF bands on the cowl and empennage came into use in the 8th AF at the end of February 1943. Not limited to Squadron or Fighter Group. Also oversized national marking (55" or 60") would have been applied under both wings.

The red surround on US national marking was from 29 June 1943 to 17 September 1943.

Had ortho film been used, red would be nearly black and yellow a dark gray.