July 1940 - What really happened to II./KG 76 and I./StG 76 ?

[Christian Schulz]

Hi everyone!

I'm currently looking into my sources and somehow can't make head or tail of what happened to II./KG 76 and I./StG 76.

Our most favourite website (www.ww2.dk (http://www.ww2.dk)) says the following on II./KG 76 ...


On 9.7.40 redesignated III./St.G.77:

Stab II./KG76 became Stab III./St.G.77
4./KG76 became 7./St.G.77
5./KG76 became 8./St.G.77
6./KG76 became 9./St.G.77

... and on I./StG 76:


On 9.7.40 redesignated I./St.G.3:

Stab I./St.G.76 became Stab I./St.G.3
1./St.G.76 became 1./St.G.3
2./St.G.76 became 2./St.G.3
3./St.G.76 became 3./St.G.3

Usually I trust Michael Holm blindly, but now I got three books claiming something completely different.

1.) "BOMBER UNITS OF THE LUFTWAFFE 1933-1945: A Reference Source Volume 1" and "BOMBER UNITS OF THE LUFTWAFFE 1933-1945: A Reference Source Volume 2" claim that II./KG 76 did not become III./StG 77 but was absorbed into III./KG 28, which - almost immediately - was renamed II./KG 76 again. I mean to me it wouldn't make much sense to convert a battle-hardened Kampfgruppe to a completely different role just like that. The renaming to another Kampfgruppe sounds a lot more reasonable to me.

2.) "Ju 87 STUKA Volume 1: Luftwaffe Ju 87 Dive-Bomber Units - 1939-1941" claims that I./StG 76 did not become I./StG 3 but III./StG 77. That could be possible since StG 76 was also using the F1 unit code and it is known that III./StG 77 continued to use it until early 1941.

So what the Kark is correct here? :confused:


http://www.smiliegenerator.de/s34/smilies-3125.png

[Larry Hickey]

Christian,

I've had the same problems figuring out what was happening with both units. One bit of information is that during the Western Campaign of May-June, 1940, I./StG76 was using the code "S1." I've got photos which prove that.

I posted a similar inquiry about I./St.G76 a while ago and never got a satisfactory answer. It may be like I./ZG1 at the end of the WC, it's component staffels went to different units (NJG and ErprGr210) and the original unit was completely disbanded.

Hope this helps and that you get some definitive answers to your inquiry.

Regards,

[Christian Schulz]

http://www.thefivewits.net/headdesk.gif

That's not what I wanted to hear, Larry. ;)

[Peter Cornwell]

Hello Christian,

The re-designation of II.(St.)/KG76 was not as straightforward as suggested. Certainly a number of its (possibly more experienced) personnel formed the cadre of the 7 and 8 Staffeln of the newly-formed III./StG77 at Argentan under Gruppenkommandeur Hauptmann Helmut BODE. But it is equally clear that III./StG77 aircrews were drawn from a wide variety of units and not all personnel from II.(St.)/KG76 were involved.

51920 Stab II./KG76 until June 1940
51921 4./KG76 = 7./StG77 July 1940 (IDs 150 + range) some crews to 3./KG76
51922 5./KG76 = 8./StG77 July 1940 (IDs 150 + range) some crews to 9./KG76
51923 6./KG76 until June 1940

A newly-constituted II./KG76 emerged from the re-designated III./KG28:

60551 Stab III./KG28 = Stab II./KG76 July 1940
60552 7./KG28 = 4./KG76 July 1940
60553 8./KG28 = 5./KG76 July 1940
60554 9./KG28 = 6./KG76 July 1940

Re-designation of I./StG76 appears comparatively straightforward:

71080 Stab I./StG76 = Stab I./StG3 July 1940
71081 1./StG76 = 1./StG3 July 1940
71082 2./StG76 = 2./StG3 July 1940
71083 3./StG76 = 3./StG3 July 1940

Hope this helps.

[Christian Schulz]

Helps immensely. Thanks, Peter! :bow:

[Larry Hickey]

Peter,

This explains the reports of III./StG77 Ju87Bs carrying the F1 code that the crews from II./KG76 would have been using in their old unit. Do we have evidence that the F1 code was used by BOTH KG76 and III./StG77 during the Battle of Britain? Certainly KG76 did. Did III./StG77 eventually change it's code from "F1" to "S2" as carried by the rest of the Geschwader, or did it retain the "F1" code throughout the war?

Thanx

[Doug Stankey]

Yes, this is a very confusing subject but we (Larry deZeng and I) think we have it sorted out. The most critical information comes from original Luftwaffe documents but there are other clues too.The comment about St.G. 76 having the “F1” code was common knowledge for decades but when I checked into it I found no actual evidence to support this anywhere!

According to our next book (to be titled something like “Ground Attack Units of the Luftwaffe, a Reference Source”) which should be released next year, we have concluded the following:

I./St.G. 76 transferred to Barly (17 km west-south-west of Arras) during 25-30 June 1940. The remains of Gruppe disbanded, with the greater part going into the creation of III./St.G. 77 and a smaller part going into the formation of I./St.G. 3 on 9 July 1940. The Kommandeur of the Gruppe during this time was Walter Sigel. (i.e. for BOTH Gruppen).

We postulate (in the absence of real evidence) that the unit codes for this/these Gruppen was actually:(S1+_B, H, K, L). Larry Hickey says he has evidence to support this but I haven’t seen any myself, so I would be most curious to see it.

As for III./St.G. 77:


We have that it was formed on 9 July 1940 at either Barly (17 km west-south-west of Arras) or at Caen /Normandy from the major part of the former I./St.G. 76 with a smaller part from the former II./K.G. 76.
Codes: up to July 1942 (F1+_C, M, N, P), then (S2+_D, R, S, T).

I hope this helps to clear things up.

[Larry Hickey]

Doug,

Post your email address in my private msg box on this site and we'll swap some photos. Did you get the corrections to the captions of your Bombers Vol I that I sent to Eddie Creek?

Regards,

[Christian Schulz]

Doug

There is a photo of a force-anded Stuka in Rolfe/Ketley "Luftwaffen Embleme". The authors associate the photo to I./StG 76, but only parts of the code are visible (the top of the unit code). It's a bit difficult to see but I think (Warning! Subjective impression incoming!) that the code is not F1 as the caption claims. The first character's upper edge is not horizontal as an F would suggest - it looks a lot more like S1 to me. *shrugs*

[Larry Hickey]

Christian,

I'm familiar with that photo and I'm certain that it is an "S1" code. I've got photos of at least 4 different I./StG76 aircraft during the spring of 1940 in my EOE Data Base, all with clearly visible "S1" codes. I've never seen a Stuka with an "F1" code expect ones that are clearly from III./StG77.

Regards,

[Peter Cornwell]

Doug,

I will be interested to learn what evidence exists to support your statement that ‘the greater part’ of III./StG77 was formed from I./StG76 with ‘a smaller part’ coming from II.(St.)/KG76. My question is prompted by an analysis of recorded personnel numbers of all casualties reported by III./StG77 throughout 1940 which reveals their origins to have been as follows:

Stab II.(St.)/KG76 (1 record), 4.(St.)/KG76 (4), 5.(St.)/KG76 (4), 6.(St.)/KG76 (1), 9./KG76 (1), 8./StG51 = 5./StG1 (1), 5./StG2 (1), 8./StG2 (1), and 5./StG77 (1).

Significantly no record of any personnel originating from I./StG76. So is it possible that some confusion has occurred between I./StG76 and II.(St.)/KG76 ? A similar analysis of all I./StG3 losses throughout 1940 confirms that all their casualties carried the same IDs as those of I./StG76 and no other unit is represented.

Major Walter SIGEL, Gruppenkommandeur of I./StG76, became Kommandeur of I./StG3 on re-designation of the unit – surely a simple transition ? And as previously mentioned, the Gruppenkommandeur of the newly-constituted III./StG77 was Hauptmann Helmut BODE.

Good luck with your book.

[Doug Stankey]

I checked against our notes and this “greater part” and “lesser part” stems from Larry’s notes.

In reference to III./St.G. 77:
“Formed 9 July 1940 at either Barly/17 km WSW of Arras in NE France or at Caen in Normandy from the main elements of I./St.G. 76. Elements of II./KG 76, that had commenced conversion to the Ju 87 on 1 February 1940, are also believed to have been incorporated into the new Gruppe.“

Larry’s notes are derived primarily from original Luftwaffe documents, so we can expect the information to be reliable. Particularly interesting was the passage about elements of II./KG 76 starting to convert to Ju 87s. This is made more odd by the fact that the Gruppe had only just been formed the previous month. This aspect is not mentioned in our Bomber Units book.

The info about origins of the personnel of III./St.G. 77 who became casualties is interesting. Where did you get this? Loss reports don’t mention their prior units. I noticed that several of these show they came previously from II./KG 76, which would tend to support our position. Could it be that your info source simply missed the brief period in which I./St.G. 76 existed?

Without a way to check the archival documents Larry examined, I cannot trace this further.

I hope this helps

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

I do not know if this will help, but I have browsed a bit in my document collection.

1. In the Vortrag zum Einsatzbereitschaft for 08.06.1940, under changes, the order to reequip the III./KG 76 with Ju 87B, replacing their Do 17Z aircraft is referenced.

2. This order is reversed and the Vortrag zum Einsatzbereitschaft for 15.06.1940 states that instead of the III./KG 76 being reequipped, the order is given that the II./KG 76 was to make this change from Do 17Z to Ju 87B. The strength report of this date show that the unit are redeploying to a new base, and that they have a strength of 36 Ju 87B's on hand, none operational.

3. The strength report of 22.06.1940 show a reduced number of Ju 87B's and a single Bf 108 on strength with the unit, which still retain it's designation as II.(St.)/KG 76

4. The strength report of 29.6.1940 show that the aircraft are now mostly operational, while the aircrew is not.... typically a result of the units aircrew undergoing conversion training and not yet at operational status. this would definitely suggest that the aircrew in this unit were transferred from a unit with other aircraft types on strength.

5. The strength report of 6.7.1940 (6th July) show the unit designation being changed from II.(St.)/KG 76 to III./St.G.77, and that 18 of their 25 crews now are operational.

During the same period, the I./KG 76 seems to have been operational in their bomber role, utilizing the Do 17Z, with no changes to the structure of the unit, or strength fluctuations that would indicate a transfer of major parts of their aircrew to the II./KG 76 later III./StG 77.

Also, it is of interest to note that a new Ju 88 equipped II./KG 76 is formed during the same period, by using the aircraft and crews that emerged after the III./KG 28 were reequipped with Ju 88.

Well, at least this is what the Luftwaffe Quartermaster General thought was going on at the time...

Regards,
Andreas B

[Peter Cornwell]

Doug & Andreas,

Thanks for the inputs. On the balance of evidence currently available I remain sceptical that the bulk of I./StG76 ever went to form III./StG77.

It is also clear from the information now provided by Andreas that II.(St.)/KG76 did not ‘commence conversion to the Ju87 on 1 February 1940’ but later. Beyond that I note that they recorded no loss or damage involving the type from that date, (a reasonable expectation if they were working up new equipment), while contemporary documentary evidence (Flugbuch & RAF Interrogation) indicates Do17s continued in uninterrupted service throughout the period which seems puzzling. GQM Returns also report Do17 losses daily from May 10. What is clear is that some of the original II.(St.)/KG76 crews underwent conversion training throughout this period pending its eventual re-designation as III./StG77 on July 6, 1940.

My information on the origins of personnel comes from an analysis of personal IDs contained in the original Namentliche Verlustmeldung of all units concerned and, as such, includes those of I./StG76.

[Doug Stankey]

Thank you Peter and Andreas!

This has been most interesting. In view of the info presented and the arguments raised, Larry and I have discussed this and, while still uncertain, we have modified our manuscript for Ground Attack Units to express the uncertainty over this matter of "greater part" and "lesser part". The text of our manuscript will likely be frozen by the fall so if there more to be said about this it will have to come before then.

Isn't amazing the twists and turns raised on this board?

Doug S. and Larry deZ

[INM@RLM]

Possibly all 'old hat' for everyone except myself, all of this can now be checked directly by anyone with the inclination since the Einsatzbereitschaftmeldungen for these events have been digitized by the Bundesarchiv and made available for all to download at RL 2-III/707b & RL 2-III/708a (via invenio).
These documents actually show the change of designation from III./KG 28 to II./KG 76 as happening in the period between 29 June and 6 July 1940, at which point the Gruppe was already in the process of exchanging its He 111s for Ju 88s, (The date shown on Michael Holm's invaluable site is as 9 July.)