Ju 88 A-17 ??+DP

[DB601E]

Hi,
does anybody have info about Ju 88 A-17 where last 2 digits of the marking (Geschwaderkennung) is +DP.
The unit could be KG 26 (1H+DP) or KG 76 (F1+DP) or KG 77 (3Z+DP).
Is there a loss known for a AC with this kind of marking later than spring 1943?


Thanks a lot

Lino

[edNorth]

You have to show pic (to verify you are correct on A-17 version) -Possibilities are KG 26 (or KG 77) but KG 76 did not have A-17´s (so far as I remember).

[thenelm]

Neither loss is a Ju 88A-17 as reported, but there is this:
Ju 88A-4, 6535, Breitschädel, Uffz. Georg, , 6., KG 26, , 1H+DP, , , 12-Nov-43, Crew missing due to engine trouble. Crashed., , Lw.Bfh.Mitte/Deutschland, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #12)-Vol.23, , ostwärts Insel Falster, 100%, H, B Ogefr. Wolfgang Beyerlein, Bf Ogefr. Helmut Meißner & Bs Ogefr. Alfred Deutschler, ,

[Archéavion]

Hello Thenelm ,

Just a quick question! Where did you get this raport crash? Where do I go to find this information?

I just find a Ju88 fell on the night of 2 / 3 or 3 / 4 August 1944 in Normandy and I'd like to identify this device. Can you help me?

Thank you

[DB601E]

Hi thenelm and Ednorth,

thanks for first info.
I have seen a picture in a private photo collection of a torpedo mechanic (from 8. LT BK), taken about spring 1943 in italy. The marking +DP was visible. The aircraft was equiped with LT, and had the special bulge on the right side of the fuselage. So for sure, at least modified, a A-17.

6. KG 26 fits very well, as the LT BK was attached mainly to II./KG26.

So it's maybe possible, AC was modified to A-17, in loss records still mentioned as A-4?

As i'm currently looking for more documentation about torpedo units, i'll try to get the picture.

Best greetings.

@Archéavion
Salut, you may contact me via PM.

[Chris Goss]

Thenelm would have got this from the Quartermaster General's Returns but they are missing for 1944 so I refer to your initial query-if you want to know more you need to be more precise like date/type/crew/Wk Nr

[edNorth]

DB601E

Ok. Bulge on right side of nose - either A-4 LT or A-17 (depending on details and time frame) - just not "bulge on nose". The A-4 LT was in use from (apx) mid 1942 to early 1944, the A-17 from very late in 1943 to May 1945 (just to give approximate time frame).

Picture "taken about spring 1943" is not very exact - so much was happening in 1943 in Italy and not all "losses" for that period are known. For exmple there were many more Ju 88´s found wrecked at Foggia Airfields than are reported lost there - but then many were indentified as belonging to KG 76 but just few of them had unit code (many only had stkz. when looking at pictures taken of many of the wrecks).

And there is mis-match in info "+DP" could indicate II Gruppen but "from 8. LT BK" might it not indicate III Gruppen (?) I had the impression that Luftwaffe ground units were working on Staffeln basis.

Finding this exactly, without data on all aircraft assigned, transferred, loaned or permanenty excanged between two full Geschwders - and there were Torpedo Training Units (Schulen) in Italy too - then suggesting even one (as done by "thenelm" - with full respect) is pure guesswork.

Aircraft needed not to be "100%" lost to get new code (!) - Simple switch between Staffeln could change it and without more precise info (as suggested by Chris Goss) - impossible.

Over span of two years, "that particular plane" could have changed codes many times and same unit code was used over and over again (by several different aircraft, but usually just one at a time).

Then without definite Geschwader code, even more complicated and I will not suggest even one ... these last two might even have been ´last two´ of Stammkz.!

Quick sample search in just part of my listings last night, about 30+ possible matches were found on A-4´s only (KG 77, KG 26 and Stkz.)

ed

[Nick Beale]

From 6./KG 77, there was Uffz. Pabst’s 3Z+DP shot down off Corsica by a Beaufighter on 6 August 1944.

[DB601E]

Thanks a lot Ed and Nick for the information.
Some more background about my search:
After i was doing some research underwater about 3 Ju88 wrecks
near Marseille, i became more and more interested in the history of
the Anti-ship and recon missions in the mediterranean. (So KG 26, KG 77,
KG 76 and KG 100.) As you know, material (documents and pictures) about Luftwaffe units in southern france in 1944 is very hard to get. So i was very happy finding this former Torpedo mechanic with his memories and pictures. Specially because his home isn't so far away from where i live :-)
What i'm trying to do now is collecting his information and pictures. Specially because, as far as i know, there is almost nothing known about the service of the LT BK units. (Luft-Torpedo Betriebs-Kompanie). They have been attached directly to the RLM. (According to the mechanic), and not necessarly always to a special Geschwader or Gruppe.
So finding a loss/damage for this Ju 88 could provide more information about KG units supported by the 8. LT BK.
He told me he was primary attached to II. KG 26, but sametime he told me, they have been sometimes delivering LT by to other units/places by using a transport Ju 52.

Greetings from cold bavaria
Lino

[DB601E]

Got the picture now.

Greetings

Lino

[thenelm]

As Chris said, the General Quartermaster loss reports - Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #12)-Vol.23.

BTW, The Nelm = Jim P. Lost my old password and had to re-register some time ago. The NELM = The New England Luftwaffe Mafia - a moniker given to me, G.R. Morrison and another like-minded, but very computer challenged friend, John Quinn (he's getting better) who all share an interest in the Luftwaffe and WWII aviation history in general, many years ago by Rabe Anton. Kinda liked the name ;). In case it isn't obvious, we're all located in the New England area of the U.S., and, weirdly, all managed to find each other back in the 80s - before the internet. Always looking for new 'members'!! Oh, and yes, the 80s means we're all old farts.

[edNorth]

DB601E

I said in post before: "And there is mis-match in info +DP could indicate II Gruppen but "from 8. LT BK" might it not indicate III Gruppen (?)"

Now agreeing this is indeed unit code - It comes out as Yellow outlined Black "D" but "R" is 7. Staffeln (III Gruppen). I put some more light & contrast in that picture (and uploded again). Thus +DP turned out +DR

The Luftwaffe Unit code experts now possibly can search for all the possible Ju 88 A-4 LT (A-17) Torpedo Bombers unit coded 3Z+DR or 1H+DR. I discount this might be III Gruppen of a Schulen unit.

Othervise I thank you for sharing this picture with us, pictures of Ju 88 A´s carrying Torpedos are rather rare, and that clear view adds up to the overall "big picture".

Best regards
ed

[DB601E]

Hi Ed,


Fortunatly this mechanic was writing a very accurate list of dates and places of his wartime actions with 8. LT BK unit. If you compare these dates and places with II.KG26, it fits very well:
Grosseto, Villacidro, Vallence. (Source Holm)
Only timings doesn't fit sometimes very well. But for sure, the supporting torpedo mechanics unit was always a little bit slower to move.
I will check also the KG26 book "Torpedo los" this night for places and timings again, as i have the suspicion, some given dates/places for KG 26 could be wrong.

I want to work and research on this unit, as there is almost nothing known about. And he told me some nice stories and has interesting pictures for my special area of interest: Italy and southern france.

Greetings

Lino

[DB601E]

Hi Ed,

sorry but you are right: I was looking to the image again and changing contrast: It is more likely a +DR.

So i'm sorry also for anybody else, trying to help me finding my ??+DP, the game is restartet again for the search for ??+DR.

Thanks a lot

Lino

[DB601E]

Hi,

attached you'll find a excell sheet, where i have tried to compare timings and locations for 8. LT BK and torpedo units. Note that it is based on a former member of 1. Zug 8. LT BK and there is a gap because of Malaria.
Finally for the picture i would now guess it is an AC from KG 26, so marking should be 1T+DR.

Does anybody has an event/crash for 1T+DR ?

Greetings

Lino

[edNorth]

The code 1T+xx is (if I remember correctly) old code of KuFlGr 506 (from June 1942), then became III/KG 26 and operated (still with same Ju 88 A-4´s) in Norway/Finland (September 1942), then moved to Mediterranean in autumn (October/November 1942). A/c still with old code but I belive by May 1943 only code 1H+ was used (but I do not remember exactly).

http://www.ww2.dk/air/kampf/kg26.htm