Fw 190 VDM propeller blade types

[Roger Gaemperle]

Hello,

Does anybody know where I could find information about the different propller blade types used on the Fw 190?

As far as I could find out, the following types were used:

VDM 9-12067 A : metal
VDM 9-12153 A : metal with external pitch weights
VDM 9-12176 A : wooden

I am trying to find out:
- What were the differences (further to the ones mentioned above)?
- What was the sequence when they were introduced?
- The VDM 9-12153A appears to have not seen wide use. Was it superseded by the wooden blade soon after its introduction?

Thanks,
Roger

[S Sheflin]

Roger,

I am glad someone finally asked this most interesting FW 190 prop question. I too have long wondered the reason for the metal Fw 190 propeller blades with counterweights.

I can’t recall where, but in the dim recesses of my age-addled mind I recall reading somewhere that the weights were added as nose ballast to compensate when one of the engine boost systems (MW50 or GM-1) were added to the Fw 190. Can anyone confirm or refute his for us?

Steve Sheflin

[Roger Gaemperle]

Steve,

Thanks for your reply. I guess only the original manuals could explain the differences. I was not able to locate them, unfortunately.

When looking for an explanation I found the following paragraph:

"The first attempts at constant-speed propellers were called counterweight propellers which were driven by mechanisms which operated on centrifugal force. A counterbalance was set up near or in the spinner, held in by a spring. When the propeller reached a certain RPM, centrifugal force would cause these counterbalances to swing outwards, which would drive a mechanism that twisted the propeller into a steeper pitch. When the airplane slowed down, the RPM would decrease enough for the spring to push the counterweights back in, realigning the propeller to the shallower pitch."

So it appears to be related to the constant speed propeller? But how was this solved with the earlier metall type propeller and with the large wooden propeller?

Maybe there is an airplane mechanic / propeller engineer in the forum who could help?

Thanks,
Roger

[badatflyski]

propeller with weights were used on Antons A8-9(with 801D) equipped with fuselage fueltank. it was done to compensate the CG (like moving the ETC 15cm forward), the A8 field-moded without the rear tank didn't have this prop and also didn't have the ETC.

Those weights have nothing to do with the constant speed, as the the prop was comanded by a hydraulical mecanism by the kommandogerrat with an electric back-up for manual pitch control to be used by the pilot in case of a defect in the constant speed mecanism or the kommandogerrat.

ps: sorry for my poor english.

[Roger Gaemperle]

Hi Badatflyski,

Thaks for your message. May I ask you for the source of your information? If I understood you correctly:

The propeller weights were added if the fuselage fueltank was installed, but not the ETC (which would have been moved forward)?

Or did you mean that the weights were an additional measure together with the moved forward ETC if the fuselage fueltank was installed?

It appears to me a rather complex solution to add weight to rotating parts (to offset the CG shift due to the fuselage tank). Wouldn't it have been easier to add it somewhere in the engine compartment or e.g. increase front armor thickness? Or is there yet another reason why these weights were added?

Regards,
Roger

[ClinA-78]

Hello gents,

For your interest, a picture showing a counterweight coming from FW 190 A-8 WNr. 170116. As a matter of facts, only A-7, A-8, A-9 seems to have been equipped with that device.
Best regards.

ClinA-78

[Pawel Burchard]

Great photo, thanks. Is 9-12153.51 the part number for the weights?

p.

[badatflyski]

Hi Badatflyski,

Or did you mean that the weights were an additional measure together with the moved forward ETC if the fuselage fueltank was installed?


Yes, that's it.

The source of this info is White1fundation.
The Antons with rear fuselage had always an ETC (moved 15cm forward, from memory)

I find it also a strange solution for a CoG compensation. Will check for pictures of A8/R versions, those were normally equipped with a bigger(heavier) oiltank armor, will be interesting to see if on this version the weights are also present.

[ClinA-78]

Hello,

Pawel, I presume this is the part number (cf Roger's first input), but don't know what is the meaning of '.51';
However I have noticed also a Ju 88 R-2 equipped with counterweight, so would it be also a matter of particular engine, not only related to ETC and 'boosting' system? Never seen a counterweight on woodden blade from a Jumo 213 for instance, why?

Best regards

ClinA-78

[Milos Gazdic]

Very interesting discussion guys!

Does any one know what was the difference in weight between three types of props: VDM 9-12067 A, VDM 9-12153 A & VDM 9-12176 A?

Were there any 190s with the additional tank added still using wooden props?

[Jerry Crandall]

Here's one that's interesting. A short nose(A-2, A-3, A-4) Fw 190 with the appropriate flat gun cowl, a late W.Nr. ,late outline markings, late wheels and late gear doors. The prop is VDM 9-12153 A with external weights. Also no outboard cannons.
Cheers, Jerry

[Leo Etgen]

Hello

I have to say that I am somewhat doubtful that the VDM 9-12153 A had to do if the auxiliary tank was fitted or not. According to Technical Description No. 284 the Fw 190 A-8 had provision for a 115 liter auxiliary fuel tank and all aircraft were to be delivered with this installed after August 1944 or September 1944. This additional fuselage tank necessitated the ETC 501 rack being moved forward about 200 mm. Nothing is mentioned about the need for this specific propeller and overall I have seen only a limited number of photographs of aircraft fitted with it. Examples include Fw 190 A-8 "Black 13" (W.Nr. 170 346) of Stab/JG 26 flown by Oberstleutnant Josef Priller that did not have the ETC 501 rack nor any fuel stencil indicating that the auxiliary fuel tank was fitted and Fw 190 A-8 "Blue 13" of 12./JG 5 that did have the ETC 501 rack fitted.

Horrido!

Leo

[Jerry Crandall]

Hello Leo,
Yes, I agree with you. How can we be in touch?
Cheers, Jerry

[Leo Etgen]

Hi Jerry

Thanks! Please send me your e-mail through Private Message and we can continue in touch!

Horrido!

Leo

[Milos Gazdic]

Here's one that's interesting. A short nose(A-2, A-3, A-4) Fw 190 with the appropriate flat gun cowl, a late W.Nr. ,late outline markings, late wheels and late gear doors. The prop is VDM 9-12153 A with external weights. Also no outboard cannons.

Hey Jerry, Do you have a photo of this aircraft? Or was it by any chance published anywhere? I would love to see that thing. I love the early models brought to later standards... like that A-3 that had both early and late model antenna mast on the tail...

Leo & Jerry, my question about the tank & wooden props - was there just to confirm my speculation that various props were attached to the aircraft with & without the tanks installed.

Also - was the rack moved forward in order to contra balance the tank or simply to allow access to the tank's hatch?

Best,
Milos

[Leo Etgen]

Hi Milos

I agree with you that the various propellers could be fitted irrespective whether the auxiliary tank was fitted or not. For example, Fw 190 A-7 "Red 23" of the Gruppenstab of II./JG 1 flown by Oberfeldwebel Leo Schumacher was fitted with the broad wooden propeller and this subtype did not have provision for the auxiliary fuel tank. I will admit that I really am not clear if the ETC 501 rack was moved forward for center of gravity reasons or to provide clearance for the access panel. The ETC 501 rack was always in the forward position regardless if the auxiliary fuel tank was fitted or not so perhaps it was there to provide clearance. Apparently, the auxiliary fuel tank and its fittings weighed 30 kg and its fuel load 90 kg. I should also mention that it appears there were two types of auxiliary fuel tanks, a self-sealing type and later a non self-sealing type.

Horrido!

Leo

[ClinA-78]

I have noticed also a Ju 88 R-2 equipped with counterweight

This topic still doesn't answer why propeller counterweights appear also on 88's...

ClinA-78

[Roger Gaemperle]

I have an explanation (based on an original VDM wartime document) and wartime drawing in my book Captured Eagles, Vol. 1.

Am not at home and don't have a copy with me right now.

[Jerry Crandall]

Hello Milos,
The photo of the interesting Fw 190 I mentioned is on page 9 of our Wings of the Black Cross number 1.
Cheers, Jerry

[Milos Gazdic]

Thanks a lot Jerry! Will have to order a pack of WotBC - since I have most of them (got only few issues) during my years of "absence from aviation". I spoke with Judy about this already...