6L+NOS on eBay Bf 109 A or B

[ouidjat]

Hi Gents,

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-fruhe-Me-109-Jagd-Flugzeug-mit-Kennung-L-NOS-vermt-Flugzeugfuhrerschule-/221112635960?pt=Militaria&hash=item337b571238

A or B? (Lack of ventilation slits)
WNr.?
Nice surprise this morning.

Regards, Franck.

[RT]

Not a small surprise, nd what about quality of the pictures !, the marking, GL+ , from some test place ???

Rémi

[ouidjat]

Hi Rémi and Guys,

I'll change my mind; not WL-NOS cause one letter is missing I think:
Could be D-LNOS
Could be GL - code I didn't know so far ...

So thread title is changing in ?L+NOS. I think it will be better than speculations.

And Yes Rémi, nice quality.

Regards, Franck.

[RT]

That is GL , hv a look at the log-book, probably the mark for the Test-place Travemünde

Rémi

[RolandF]

A really nice early Bf109B. Features of the A-series are not visible and it was never used in hot and dusty climate, thus no additional cooling slots.
The complete code seems to be WL+NOS which would be a former D-NOS.
I do not know any five-letter codes besides the WL- codes

Servus

Roland

[Rasmussen]

That is GL , hv a look at the log-book, probably the mark for the Test-place Travemünde


What about "6 L + NOS"? Known for example an Ju 52 with "2 L + WOK".

Regrads
Rasmussen

[ouidjat]

Hi Roland,

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/stam-wl.html
Here, only WL-xxxx four letters (Total six letters)
Hence could be WL-LNOS
or here:
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/d-letters.html
only D-xxxx four letters (Total Five letters)
Hence could be D-LNOS

or GL(?)-LNOS (?)/GL-NOS don't know this kind of code so no "could be", at least for me.

That's the reason I did, at last, prefer put ?L+NOS as it appears on picture instead of conventional way to write these codes.

Regards, Franck.

[RT]

Seems you are right Rasmu., 6L+ as 2L+, solution is in the Log , the 6 looks like a G, these markings are biz. constructed
6L+COS
6L+GOS
6L+LOS
6L+NOS,


L2+F41 driven by Magnussen an Ace later with KG30, so prob. flew for Erpr.St.88
L2+G41

L2 plus prior 1939 military code ??

L2+705

L2 plus Wn ..


E6+ Code for Rechlin


HE+KE Marking from the Heinkel factory

Rémi

[RolandF]

WL+LNOS and D-LNOS , of course.
The "N" of WL-L(fuselage)NOS is visible on the right wing...

Regards

Roland

[Rasmussen]

L2 plus prior 1939 military code ??


Not unusual ... for example He 111 "2 L + B 32", LZA Rotenburg, July 1939 or the Ju 52 "2 L + V 11", Fliegerwaffenschule Tutow, March 1939, or a lot of a/c's from Lehrgruppe Greifswald in 1938 (Ju 87, Hs 123, W 34). There are a lot of "strange" markings documented by logs or pictures like an crashed He 111 "72 + XOK".

[RT]

But here is seems to hv the strange Kz "collected"

Rémi

[Jim P.]

Anyone else notice that the FB Ed listed from eBay at http://www.ebay.de/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=221112622551 has a few of those 'GL+xxx' codes?

[RT]

That what is speaking about Jim !

Rémi

[RT]

Sorry,

That what I am speaking about Jim !

[red-star25]

It´s a Bf 109 B-1 6L+N0S of Lehrstaffel (See) Travemünde.
The bird went later to 10.(See)/LG 2.
Please note, that its a zero after the N, not the letter O.
There are other a/c with this 6L+x0S VKZ used by the Lehrstaffel, as He 114, He 60, He 59, Do 18, Ju 87 and another Bf 109 B-1 in 1937.

Dirk

[RT]

Nd hv you the meaning of the 0S ,,??

Rémi

[RT]

Nd by the way the unit using the L2, L2 suggest an other Lehrstaffel....

Rémi

[ouidjat]

Aaaaaah Yeah!
Thanks guys
Hadn't seen that link and that flugbuch! I'm not conviced about the O being a 0 ...
Ed gave it? Sure?

OK just an explanation then:
1/ open the link giving the access to 6L+NOS
2/ Other links of the same seller
3/ Get the log-book
4/ Get a magnificent 2.(J)/LG 2 "Schwarze 4" with an unkown emblem.

Thanks Jim.

Cheers, Franck.

Note I change (again) Thread title.

[ouidjat]

Seems you are right Rasmu., 6L+ as 2L+, solution is in the Log , the 6 looks like a G, these markings are biz. constructed
6L+COS
6L+GOS
6L+LOS
6L+NOS,
L2+F41 driven by Magnussen an Ace later with KG30, so prob. flew for Erpr.St.88
L2+G41
L2 plus prior 1939 military code ??
L2+705
L2 plus Wn ..
E6+ Code for Rechlin
HE+KE Marking from the Heinkel factory
Rémi

Hello RT, Hi Jörg and Guys,

I just got stupid thoughts but I want to write them anyway:

Let suppose L for Lehr (well camouflaged under former "civil codes" like WL-xxxx and D-Lxxx)
Then 6L-xxx that is 6th Lehrstaffel which is reknown by "Lehrstaffel (See) Travemünde".
I would say, 6th Lehrstaffel, O for Ost and S for See, then 6L-xOS.

Works for He111 (for example) 72+XOK where O, still for Ost and K for Kampf.

Let's say, in this log book, a general overview of aircraft codes evolution from the very beginning when luftwaffe was still "civil" to earlier form , through vkz, with full unit code.
In this case "O for Ost" being the former flotte command area.

:o Good?

Regards, Franck.

[RolandF]

Completely new revelations for me - thx for teaching!

Where is this coding system described and when did it switch to the 4-letter/digit system?

Thx in advance

Roland

[red-star25]

The zero is for sure.
Some of the reports give the VKZ as "null" in written form.
I have no explanation for this system.

Dirk

[ouidjat]

:)
Hi Roland,

I said "let me make a guess" in other words ...
I am asking the same thing than you: is it possible?
If someone says; "no, we did publish it or it has been studied long time ago and what Franck wrote is stupid" I would answer "OK, no problem".

If not - I just did read Rémi and Jörg comments - could it be the beginning of a clue to explain those markings?
And if yes (after a little research) I claim the moral copyright! For free! :D

Regards, Franck.

[edNorth]

My two pennies on decoding "6L+NOS" (1938 period);
Dirk or others correct me if totally off mark.

6 = Luftkreis 6
L = Lehrstaffel (See) Travemünde
N = Aircraft letter
0 = 10 Staffel
S = Schule

Btw. Interesting logbook as (crew) from 10.(See)/LG 2 transferred to form 3./KG 30 (Rechlin) about 15 September 1939 ("confirmed" by the Ju 88 "E +OH" and "E6+YH" <ex-I/KG 25> flown by this crew from 16 Sep onwards) - Thanks edWest for original posting.

Ref: 15.09.1940 the 3. Staffeln <KG 30> was added by re-designation of 10.(See)/LG 2 [“Bomber units of the Luftwaffe” by Larry de Zeng & Doug Stankey].

[ouidjat]

Hello Ed,

Very elegant!.. To say I said stupidities; I do appreciate, you are a gentleman! Thank you very much.

Yes, of course, you are closer; I was very surprised Rémi and Jörg stood without words in this case.

Nevertheless:
- I still do pretend that "O" is not zero in this case but a true O letter. Just look carefully the whole log book. True 0 appears latter with other given VKZ. And I don't see how that O/0 leads to 10.(See)/LG 2. It became only but I cannot imagine it was planned to be.
- Did Luftkreis 6 already exist at that time (which time after all)? I thought Luft(sport)waffe was still supposed to be under cover.
- Last, a little thing: What's the difference between Lehr and Schule? Two times in the same code? Because, excuse me, L for "Lehrstaffel (See) Travemünde" no, 6L yes, as a whole.

Best regards, Franck.

[edNorth]

Franck, not expert on the pre-March/April 39 codes, but I think these belong to that period (pre-war) ;-)

[Seaplanes]

Just a small correction: 10.(See)/L.G.2 was redesignated 3./K.G.30 with
effect from 15.09.1939. Ref: KTB Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.M./O.Qu. for September 1939 page 55.

[ouidjat]

Ed,

I hope gents are taking my posts in this thread as fair ones.
You said no expert, I'm not too, and my main concern is Bf 109 ID.
But, as you know, it's difficult, sometimes, to put an ID without taking care of the background.
And I have - at least and not so - an obvious lack of background in such "exotic" pre-March 1939 code "rules", especially when it does concern flight schools.
I think, too, that I'm not the only one. I'm just trying to exchange fair thoughts, even naive ones, with everybody because I'm a 100% sure that knowledge can take his way not only through documentation reading but, too, with the help of feeling, trying, speculation.

I know a friend, well deep concerned with this question, who is absent since long time in this forum, and in another, because of his own personnal life struggles but, today, he was here, just watching without comments...

I just want to get reactions, which is, too, the purpose of such forum I guess?

Best regards, Franck.

[ouidjat]

Just a small correction: 10.(See)/L.G.2 was redesignated 3./K.G.30 with
effect from 15.09.1939. Ref: KTB Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.M./O.Qu. for September 1939 page 55.

Hi Seaplanes,

Hence no personnal transfer but unit redesignation. If not I can see no difference with Ed's references.

Since I think we are talking about 1938 period, do we have some indications/sources about how and when Lehrstaffel (See) Travemüde became 10.(See)/LG 2 and what was the incidence on coding?

Another point:
What was the purpose to fly so much different types of planes in the same unit? Maybe a partial answer for my own question to Ed "what's the difference between Lehr and Schule"?.. Without talking about they-used-what-was-available ...

:D : The right designation should have been Nesting-See trials-School! (Seems like a joke; but after reading Mombeek JG 2 Vol 1 and the way units did split and were created with the available material under foreign control contengencies, I do believe that happened like that). Hence, too, the constant changing in unit designation and coding. Well ... it's obvious.

Regards, Franck.

[edNorth]

Ok. Now "this friday food shopping" is done, so more digging can be done.

@Seaplanes. Apologies, I shurely meant 1939 there too (my typo) as you see 1939 in paragraf above - This latter was copy/paste from other file (early Ju 88 unit histories, still in draft) and now wonder if this is error by me, or from deZeng/Stankey reference (likely mine I guess).

@Franck. One must look at the background too, Or at least try. There was Luftkreiskommando VI (Kiel) formed earlier (April 1935). One source says 10.(See)Staffel/LG 2 was newly formed in November 1938.

Added: returning to eBay logbook, I notice Do 18 code "L2+FOS" amended to "L2+F41" - This says me meaning "IV Gruppen, 1 Staffel = (later date 10 Staffeln in IV Gruppen).

[ianatheling]

I have several photos of He 111 and Do 17 with pre-war codes xx+x0K. I am sure that in these cases the code is used for the stab flight, with the number 0 designating stab and K designating Kampf.

so a He 111 marked 33+E0K is stab./KG 253

Ian

[Seaplanes]

Based on information in BA/MA files RL 10/365 and the log book of Uffz. Fries, the Lehrstaffel (See) Travemünde (unit code 6L+) was formed in June 1938. On 01.11.38 the unit was redesignated 10.(See)/L.G.2 (unit code L2+). On 15.09.39 redesignated 3./K.G.30.
In June and July 1938 the unit received the following new aircraft:
He 60E W.Nr. 2478 6L+B0S
He 60E W.Nr. 2479 6L+C0S
Do 18D-1 W.Nr. 715 6L+E0S
Do 18D-1 W.Nr. 716 6L+D0S
He 59D W.Nr. 1835 6L+G0S
He 59D W.Nr. 1836 6L+H0S
Bf 109B-1 W.Nr. 354 6L+NOS
Bf 109B-1 W.Nr. 355 6L+O0S
Bf 109B-1 W.Nr. 356 6L+P0S
He 114A W.Nr. 2282 6L+W0S
On 09.06.38 the Staffel received three He 114A W.Nr. 2268, 2269 and
2270 that arrived from Heinkel with the transfer codes HE+JI, HE+KI and HE+LI respectively. They were given the unit codes 6L+T0S, U0S and V0S, not necessarirly in the same order. It is remarked that the 0 = Null (zero). However, it seems that 6L+T0S was given to He 114A W.Nr. 2373.
The Staffel also operated some aircraft that were flown with their
"civil" registrations:
W.34hi (Land) W.Nr. 1492 D-ONYY
W.34hi (See) W.Nr. 1491 D-OVUU
Ju 87A-1 W.Nr. 0870186 D-IBEX
On 19.09.38 the unit received the He 59E W.Nr. 2597 marked BA+HO from Walter Bachmann, Ribnitz (hence BA+ for Bachmann). It is stated that the transfer code was only for the flight from Ribnitz to Travemünde and had to be washed off after arrival.
Hope this is of some interest.

[ianatheling]

Many thanks, some great stuff
Ian

[edNorth]

Thank you!! Shure good stuff!! Whish someone could integrate all such prewar units into concise book or books, and including actual details of the aircraft used with codes and W.Nr.s. (no offence meant)

regards
ed

[ChrisS]

ed, I echo that!!! Much confusion and many dead ends.....

Regards
Chris

[Falcon]

Bf 109B-1 W.Nr. 354 6L+NOS
or
Bf 109B-1 W.Nr. 354 6L+N0S
??

Btw, very nice informations!! Thanks for it.

[Seaplanes]

It should be 6L+N0S ( the 0 being a zero)

[edNorth]

Here are some prewar Luftwaffe codes on similar lines, extracted from the DVL accident survey listings 1936 - 1939. There are many typos in there and some make little sense, unless they are LP numbers or W.Nr.s. (some are).

2L+E0K Do 17 crash 05.37
2L+D0K Do 17 crash 12.37
2C+C0K Do 17 F-1 crash 02.38 (or typo for 2L+COK ?)
(xx+) E.0.K. Do 17 crash 02.38
S7+Y0L Ju 52 accident 07.38 (* one off code ?)
33+E0K He 111 crash 10.38
52+C3K Do 17 F-2 crash 02.39
20+GAI He 45 crash 05.39 (or typo for 20+GAL ?)
L1+C4K Do 17 F accident 06.39
72+X0K He 111 B crash 06.39

I wonder if there are other (accident) records available of pre-war Luftwaffe planes listing unit codes and W.Nrs. (the DVL lists have just a few W.Nr., usually only code, reg and type).

regards
ed