FW190a-3 /A4 AGr123 in France 1943 1944.

[Eric Larger]

Hello

I am looling ofr dataon Ag123 AufKlärungsGruppe 123 based in France in 1943 1944. They used Buc Airfield near Versailles and Toussus-le -Noble for reconnaissance opérations over England .

Does anyone know losses or other event concerning this unit at that time . The had FW190A-3 or FW190a-4 and Bf109G-4 modified to carry cameras .

ALl the best

Eric

[brewerjerry]

Hi Eric ,

14 mar 43, yellow 9 +, Wn5346, FW-190, 5(F)/123
29 apr 43 , Wn 14773, 7 + , 109G-4 , 4(F)/123
29 apr 43 , Wn 14764, 2 + , 109G-4 , 4 (F)/123
14 sept 43 , 12 + , Wn19194 , 109 , 4(F)/123

Maybe other know more losses / details
Cheers
Jerry

[Jim P.]

Bf 109E 4970 I.(F) 123 24-Jun-41 Bruchlandung. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5 Fl.Pl. Toussus le Buc 15% H
Bf 109E-7 4160 3.(F) 123 06-Jan-42 Notlandung due to severe ground conditions. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #4)-Vol. 7 near Lille 10% H
Bf 109F-1 5650 Ripplinger, Uffz. Alois 3.(F) 123 06-Jan-42 Injured in Notlandung due to severe ground conditions. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #4)-Vol. 7 near Lille 25% H
Bf 109E-7 4970 Thüne, Uffz. Kurt 1.(F) 123 wei§ S 4U+SH 07-Jan-42 POW when engine failed while on recon of Plymouth. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #4)-Vol. 7; Blitz, Then & Now, p. 94. Mardle Wood, Buckfastleigh, Devon 100% F
Bf 109F-4/R3 8765 Grassberger, Uffz. Rolf 1.(F) 123 24-Apr-42 KIA, crashing into the sea on recon to Southampton. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #5)-Vol. 8; The Blitz, Then & Now, p.109. (Southampton) 100% F
Bf 109F-4 8641 Berndt, Oblt. Gottfried 3.(F) 123 10-May-42 Injured in crash due to pilot error. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #6)-Vol. 9 Fl.Pl. Guyancourt 90% H
Bf 109F-4 10088 3.(F) 123 12-Jun-42 Tire damage. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #6)-Vol. 9 Fl.Pl. Lorient 50% H
Bf 109F-4 10084 3.(F) 123 12-Aug-42 Take-off accident. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #6)-Vol.10 Fl.Pl. Rennes 45% F
Bf 109F-4 8638 1.(F) 123 19-Aug-42 Take-off accident. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #6)-Vol.10 Fl.Pl. Buc 25% F
Bf 109F-4 8639 3.(F) 123 26-Aug-42 Take-off accident. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #7)-Vol.10 Fl.Pl. Lannion 35% F
Bf 109F-4 10188 Fischer, Fw. Georg 1.(F) 123 wei§e +R 28-Aug-42 MIA, cause unknown. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #7)-Vol.10 100% F
Bf 109E-7 4972 Thüne, Uffz. Kurt 1.(F) 123 01-Sep-42 Injured in Bruchlandung. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #4)-Vol. 6 near Romigei 70% F
Bf 109E-7 4965 1.(F) 123 01-Sep-42 Bruchlandung. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #4)-Vol. 6 Fl.Pl. Bierset 40% H
Bf 109F-4 8790 Schuster, Uffz. Hans 1.(F) 123 27-Sep-42 Injured in crash due to fuel shortage. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #7)-Vol.11 near Dieppe 95% F
Bf 109F-4 8362 1.(F) 123 28-Sep-42 Bruchlandung due to pilot error. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #7)-Vol.11 Fl.Pl. Théville 35% F
Bf 109F-4 8638 Hohlfeld, Uffz. Fritz 1.(F) 123 wei§e V + 07-Oct-42 MIA, cause unknown. Pilot from 1.(F)/33. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #7)-Vol.11 100% F
Bf 109F-4 7651 1.(F) 123 20-Oct-42 Bruchlandung due to pilot error. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #7)-Vol.11 Fl.Pl. Théville 10% H
Bf 109F-4 7215 Kohl, Uffz. Eduard 1.(F) 123 wei§e 5 + 28-Oct-42 MIA, cause unknown. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #7)-Vol.11 100% F
Bf 109F-4 10185 1.(F) 123 CI+MY 02-Dec-42 Taxiing accident. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #7)-Vol.12 Fl.Pl. Théville 15% H
Bf 109F-4 10189 Rück, Oblt. Karl 4.(F) 123 wei§e 1 + 17-Dec-42 MIA, cause unknown. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #7)-Vol.12 100% F
Bf 109F-4 10246 Raucheisen, Ltn. Karl 4.(F) 123 wei§e 7 + - 17-Dec-42 MIA, cause unknown. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #7)-Vol.12 100% F
Bf 109F-4 10190 Link, Uffz. Eberhard 4.(F) 123 wei§e 4 + 17-Jan-43 KIA, cause unknown. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.13 100% F
Bf 109F-4 7561 4.(F) 123 26-Jan-43 Notlandung due to fuel shortage after becoming lost. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.13 near Fl.Pl. Octeville 55% F
Bf 109F-4 10087 Marcke, Ltn. Wilhelm 4.(F) 123 08-Feb-43 Inuured, flew into the ground. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.14 near Cherbourg 95% H
Fw190A-2 5330 4.(F) 123 10-Jan-43 Bruchlandung due to pilot error. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.13 Fl.Pl. Theville 60% F
Fw190A-2 0208 4.(F) 123 10-Jan-43 Bauchlandung due to technical failure. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.13 Fl.Pl. Theville 15% F
Fw190A-3/U4 35346 Sahre, Fw. Oskar 5.(F) 123 rote 9 + 13-Mar-43 MIA, cause unknown. Reported as 'gelb 9'. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #9)-Vol.15; Frappe, La Luftwaffe en France, p.122 photo 100% F
Fw190A-5 2627 Hanebutt, Hptm. Joachim 4.(F) 123 wei§e 14 + 21-Jun-43 Staffelkapitan. MIA, cause unknown. Crashed. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #10)-Vol.18; Frappe & Lorant p.155 100% F
Fw190A-4 2662 4.(F) 123 24-Aug-43 Bruchlandung due to pilot error. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.20 Fl.Pl Theville 30% F

Bf 109G-1 14133 Frank, Ltn. Bernhard 4.(F) 123 wei§e 19 + DN+CM* 24-Dec-42 MIA, cause unknown. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #7)-Vol.12 100% F
Bf 109G-1 14135 Ripplinger, Fw. Alois 4.(F) 123 wei§e 22 + 24-Dec-42 MIA, cause unknown. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #7)-Vol.12 100% F
Bf 109G-4 14763 Hey, Uffz. Otto 4.(F) 123 1 + GD+UG* 15-Feb-43 WIA due to enemy fire. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.14 near Plymouth 25% F
Bf 109G-4 14762 Döring, Ltn. Felix 5.(F) 123 +R3 GD+UF* 07-Mar-43 MIA, cause unknown. 'rot 3'? Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #9)-Vol.15 100% F
Bf 109G-4 14926 Sickinger, Ltn. Walter 4.(F) 123 16-Mar-43 Crashed due to engine fire. Pilot FSA. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #9)-Vol.15 near Cherbourg 100% F
Bf 109G-4 14917 Sickinger, Ltn. Walter 4.(F) 123 14-Apr-43 Killed in Bruchlandung due to enemy fire. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #9)-Vol.16 Fl.Pl. Theville 100% F
Bf 109G-4 14927 5.(F) 123 17-Apr-43 Crashed. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #9)-Vol.16 Fl.Pl. St. Pol 80% F
Bf 109G-4 14761 4.(F) 123 GD+UE* 19-Apr-43 Bruchlandung due to pilot error. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #9)-Vol.16 Fl.Pl. Theville 50% F
Bf 109G-4 14773 Senzbach, Ltn. Ernst 4.(F) 123 7 + GD+UQ* 29-Apr-43 MIA, cause unknown. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #9)-Vol.16 100% F
Bf 109G-4 14764 Quante, Fw. Willi 4.(F) 123 3 + GD+UH* 29-Apr-43 KIA, cause unknown. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #9)-Vol.16 100% F
Bf 109G-4 14920 Rapp, Oblt. Richard 2.(F) 123 4U+WK 29-Apr-43 MIA, cause unknown. Mittelmeer Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #9)-Vol.16; Avions #109, p.46 (Cypera) 100% F
Bf 109G-4 14916 2.(F) 123 01-May-43 Notlandung due to fuel shortage. Mittelmeer Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #10)-Vol.18; Avions #109, p.46 Bucht von Gadurra/Kreta 80% F
Bf 109G-4 14776 5.(F) 123 GD+UT* 13-May-43 Undercarriage damage during take-off due to severe ground conditions. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #10)-Vol.17 Fl.Pl. St. Pol 40% F
Bf 109G-4 14906 Marcks, Ltn. Wilhelm 4.(F) 123 5+LB 15-May-43 KIA in Luftkampf. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #10)-Vol.17 South of Plymouth 100% F
Bf 109G-4 14912 4.(F) 123 29-May-43 Tiefangriff. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #10)-Vol.17 Fl.Pl. Cherbourg-Theville 85% F
Bf 109G-4 14901 Lindemann, Oblt. Justus 2.(F) 123 4U+IK 12-Jun-43 MIA, cause unknown. Mittelmeer Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #10)-Vol.18 (Hafen Tobruk) 100% F
Bf 109G-4 14910 Sieker, Fw. Heinz 5.(F) 123 13-Jun-43 MIA after Luftkampf. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #10)-Vol.18 100% F
Bf 109G-4 14907 Klawen, Ltn. Joachim 4.(F) 123 22-Jun-43 Injured in crash due to engine trouble. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #10)-Vol.18 near Bayeux 100% F
Bf 109G-4 14773 5.(F) 123 25-Jun-43 Bruchlandung due to pilot error. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #10)-Vol.18 Fl.Pl. St. Pohl 15% H
Bf 109G-4 14774 Beultzingslöwen, Uffz. Karl von 5.(F) 123 schwarze 1 + - GD+UR* 27-Jun-43 MIA, cause unknown. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #10)-Vol.18 100% F
Bf 109G-4 14929 5.(F) 123 03-Jul-43 Notlandung due to engine trouble. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.19 near Abbeville 15% F
Bf 109G-4/R-3 14763 Jaschinski, Ltn. Hans 4.(F) 123 blaue 1 + GD+UG* 16-Aug-43 KIA, being shot down by Spitfire Mk.VIIs of 124 Sq. (Haywood & Brooks). DK Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.20; The Blitz, Then & Now, p.291. Hill Farm, Newchurch, Isle of Wight (Pl.Qu. 1117/15 West) 100% F
Bf 109G-4 14913 4.(F) 123 18-Aug-43 Bruchlandung due to pilot error. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.20 Fl.Pl. Theville 15% F
Bf 109G-4 19397 4.(F) 123 25-Aug-43 Take-off accident. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.20 Fl.Pl. Theville 35% H
Bf 109G-4 19393 Vögele, Ltn. Kurt 4.(F) 123 27-Aug-43 Killed in crash. Listed as a FW190G-4. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.20 near Fl.Pl. Theville 100% F
Bf 109G-4 14909 Schiller, Fw. Helmuth 5.(F) 123 31-Aug-43 KIA in Luftkampf. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.21 near Lille 100% F
Bf 109G-4 14770 5.(F) 123 GD+UN* 03-Sep-43 Bruchlandung due to wind squall. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.21 Fl.Pl. Monchy-Breton 25% F
Bf 109G-4 19201 2.(F) 123 04-Sep-43 Notlandung at sea due to engine trouble. Pilot rescued. Mittelmeer Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.21 South of Kreta 100% F
Bf 109G-6 19944 Garve, Fw. Siegfried 1.(F) 123 09-Sep-43 MIA, crashing after Luftkampf. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.21 Pl.Qu. 21415 West 100% F
Bf 109G-4 14902 Gruttke, Ltn. Heinz 2.(F) 123 10-Sep-43 Killed in crash due to pilot error. Mittelmeer Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.22 West of Castelli 80% F
Bf 109G-4 19194 Wittmer, Oblt. Fritz 4.(F) 123 wei§e 12 + 14-Sep-43 MIA, cause unknown. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.21 100% F
Bf 109G-4 19938 Hofmeister, Ofw. Josef 2.(F) 123 4U+IK 19-Sep-43 MIA after Luftkampf. Mittelmeer Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.21 Marsa Matruk 100% F
Bf 109G-4 10918 5.(F) 123 23-Sep-43 Bruchlandung due to technical failure. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.21 Monchy 100% F
Bf 109G-4 14768 Hey, Uffz. Otto 4.(F) 123 wei§e 1 + - GD+UL* 14-Oct-43 Killed, probably hit the water. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.22 Pl.Q. 20-63, 15 West 100% F
Bf 109G-4 14913 Wiebe, Ltn. Hans 4.(F) 123 20-Nov-43 Missing, cause unknown. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #12)-Vol.23 100% H
Bf 109G-5 15728 Schulz, Fw. Wilhelm 4.(F) 123 20-Nov-43 Killed, cause unknown. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #12)-Vol.23 100% H
Bf 109G-6 19950 Tornoff, Ltn. Ernst 4.(F) 123 03-Dec-43 Killed in crash after wing came off. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #12)-Vol.24 Fl.Pl. Theville 100% F
Bf 109G-5 110381 Kammann, Gefr. Wilhelm 4.(F) 123 blaue 5 + 20-Jun-44 MIA, cause unknown. FR Frappé, La LW face au débarquement allié, p.267, 317 baie de Seine 100% F
Bf 109G-5 110377 Hinz, Fw. Heinz 2.(F) 123 22-Jun-44 Killed in crash due to technical failure. Balkans Avions #110, p.38 Devoli 100% H
Bf 109G-5/R2 27106 Blochberger, Uffz. Hubert 4.(F) 123 blaue 1 + DP+JZ* 24-Jun-44 MIA after Luftkampf with enemy fighters. A recent wreck recovery. WNr. may be 27107. FR Frappé, La LW face au débarquement allié, p.267, 318; JHK South of Le Havre 100% F
Bf 109G-6 Warthol, Ltn. Walter 5.(F) 123 schwarze 17 + - 16-Aug-44 POW due to Flak. FR Frappé, La LW face au débarquement allié, p.272, 330 South of Dreux 100% F
Bf 109G Spies, Oblt. Theodor 5.(F) 123 28-Aug-44 KIA due to Flak. FR Frappé, La LW face au débarquement allié, p.273, 332 Saillans, 40km SE of Valence 100% F

[Andy Fletcher]

Hi Jim,

Could you please provide any Bf109 loss details for Stab/NAGr.4, 1/NAGr.4 and 2/NAGr.4 between Mar43-Dec43. Any help would be much appreciated.

Regards

Andy Fletcher

[ouidjat]

Hi all,

Just a question: Where is Romigei (in France) except in this forum and in the Kracker list????

Cheers, Franck.

[Bertrand H]

Hi Franck,

Could it be Romilly (sur seine) ?

http://www.echodelta.net/gaer/aerodrome.php4?id=120

Bertrand

[Brian Bines]

Bf109G-6 5(F)/123 Obfw. Friedrich Geuter killed on 28-3-1944. Shot down by Allied fighter(s) 9 Km west of Amien-Glissy returning from Recon. to London and Thames Estuary - source NVM

[Nick Beale]

To complicate matters, FAG 123 was acting as the parent outfit for other recon units in France, so you might want to include NAG 13 in your question, for example.

[ouidjat]

@Bertrand,
Je n'en sais rien mon ami. Why not the others Romilly then?.. Too much differences for my understanding.
@Nick,
For who your comments?

I wrote "only in this forum and in the Kracker list" since these are the two links given by Google! Any other suggestion?

Cheers, Franck.

PS: Toussus-le-Noble is named Toussus-le-Buc in Michael Holm site (AGr.123 page)! May be the name has been changed between the WWII and now?!

[ouidjat]

Hi Guys,

Thanks to ARS (Melvin Brownless) the crash is situated 10 km West of Rheims according to the Staffel foto Album. In the attached documents (WASt Verlustmeldung) it's written Romigei!!! Could be Romigny, Marne (51) - Ville-en-Tardenois area - then.

Cheers, Franck.

[zorglub]

Just one question : could someone confirm date of loss ( and hour ) of Fw Oskar Sahre , was it 13 or 14 March 1943 ? Possibly shot down by a 486 Sq pilot ? The date ( 14 ) seems to match with a Luftwaffe loss near Fecamp , pilot still buried with plane.
Any suggestion is welcome !

Zorglub

[RT]

Hello Jim,

Where hv you found that one ??

Bf 109E-7 4972 Thüne, Uffz. Kurt 1.(F) 123 01-Sep-42 Injured in Bruchlandung. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #4)-Vol. 6 near Romigei 70% F

Rémi

[brewerjerry]

Hello Jim,

Where hv you found that one ??

Bf 109E-7 4972 Thüne, Uffz. Kurt 1.(F) 123 01-Sep-42 Injured in Bruchlandung. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #4)-Vol. 6 near Romigei 70% F

Rémi

Hi
this is a strange one ?
from memory thune crashed S/W england Jan 42 and was POW.
wrong pilot for 01-sep-42 ? or wrong year ?
cheers
Jerry

[Melvin Brownless]

Hi to all,

Kurt Thüne crash landed and overturned on return from reconnaissance flight over England on the 1st September 1941 not 1942. Please go to our website link below and see pictures of the overturned aircraft and one of Uffz. Thüne.

01.09.1941 1./(F)123 Messerschmitt Bf 109E-7 Wnr.4972 Uffz Thuene (http://www.aircrewremembrancesociety.com/luft1941/Thuene.html)

Kind regards,

Melvin

www.aircrewremembrancesociety.com

[Melvin Brownless]

Just one question : could someone confirm date of loss ( and hour ) of Fw Oskar Sahre , was it 13 or 14 March 1943 ? Possibly shot down by a 486 Sq pilot ? The date ( 14 ) seems to match with a Luftwaffe loss near Fecamp , pilot still buried with plane.
Any suggestion is welcome !

Zorglub

Zorglub,

The details you require are the following:

13.03.1943 Reconnaissance Eastern side of the English Channel.
Focke Wulf Fw 190A-3/U4 Wnr.35346 Red 9 +
Fw. Oskar Sahre Erk:62524/131 Missing.

Shot down by F/Sgt. R. H. Fitzgibbon in a Typhoon of No. 486 NZ Sqdn. Aircraft lost in the Channel.

Regards,

Melvin

www.aircrewremembrancesociety.com (http://www.aircrewremembrancesociety.com)

[zorglub]

Many thanks for the pictures Melvin ,

However Thomas/Shores and Foreman put F/S Fitzgibbon's claim on 14 March , not 13 , hence my problem .
At last we have a Fw190 with missing pilot lost either on 13 or 14 March 1943 here , most certainly downed in the morning .

Zorglub

[Johannes]

Hi 4./AG 123 also claimed some enemy aircraft, which will tell you some dates they were operatiing.

2nd June 1943 a mosquito at 1455 hrs Fw"Garve"
6th September 1943 B-17 at 1305 hrs Fw....cannot estalish name!
20th December 1943 P-47 1256 hrs X 2 Fw "Schuster"
20th December 1943 B-26 1258 hrs Fw "Schuster"
24th December 1943 B-26 1413 hrs Fw "Schuster"
24th December 1943 B-26 1413 hrs Fw....cannot estabilsh name!
5th January 1944 Spitfire 1555 hrs Fw....Cannot establish name!
8th June 1944 B-24 0800 hrs Fw Hans Schuster
10th June 1944 Spitfire 1737 hrs (100 metres altitude)Fw Hans Schuster

I really do suspect that those marked "Schuster" were by DKiG holder Hans Schuster!

Regards

Johannes