HE111 I. D. markings help?

[robinh]

Posted this question on a different site but have not heard any info.

I recently obtained a neat small photo of a HE-111 bomber crashed possibly in England. The rear body markings are SF + CY. The tail rudder has the number 4962. Would this be a school marking? There is a small US Piper plane shown on the ground in the background. Any id and history on that bomber and crew would be appreciated. Any hints on how to do that research myself would be wonderful also. Thank you.

[robinh]

Any hints on how to do that research myself would be wonderful also. Thank you.

[Revi16]

Not much help, but the 4962 on the vertical stab/rudder is the Werk Nummer of the aircraft.

[edNorth]

Indentifying what is on an photo without seeing it is like a shot in the dark.

Seems this might be He 111 H-6 serial number 4962 with Luftwaffe individual aircraft indentification code SF+CY taken in Germany (or there abouts) at end of the war in 1945. Nothing yet to indicate if used by a school or other unit. That US Piper possibly be a USAAF Piper L-4 Grasshopper (?) for artillery spotting. Doupt photo taken in England at all.

I do not know if there are "instructions" on the internet regarding "Luftwaffe Research" but googling word combinations on this might be a start. Somone might have asked before on such matters. It is really just a chance were people start. For me it started over 40 years ago, hearing stories, writing them down and then by decades of research finding out they were just that. Stories. Mostly misleading and often wrong. In many case false. But I tell you: Luftwaffe research is a huge (mine)field.

[edNorth]

and this He 111 H-6 be produced after 1940, so Larry Hickey does not need worry

[chuckschmitz]

robinh,

Can we see a photo?

Chuck

[RT]

Crash softly, 15 %, on 2.April 44 at Johannisthal FP in Berlin City , flew for Fl.Bereitschaft Gen der Lwf

Rémi

[edNorth]

repaired ? (15% was little damage); no USAAF Piper around untill a year later ?

[robinh]

Not sure of US small plane in background. Small photo and far away in background. Will try and post photo asap. Thanks for advice and help.

[robinh]

I do not seem to be able to rotate this photo. Rookie I guess.

12877

[edwest]

Posted this question on a different site but have not heard any info.

I recently obtained a neat small photo of a HE-111 bomber crashed possibly in England. The rear body markings are SF + CY. The tail rudder has the number 4962. Would this be a school marking? There is a small US Piper plane shown on the ground in the background. Any id and history on that bomber and crew would be appreciated. Any hints on how to do that research myself would be wonderful also. Thank you.



Hello,

I hope you don't mind a few questions that you can answer or decline to.

How did you obtain the photo? Online, friend, relative, antique shop? Other?

The US Piper. Are there any troops near it? German, American, British? And the same for the He-111.



Best,
Ed

[edNorth]

*Boom* (?!)

[edNorth]

He 111 H-6 manuals

http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/Dokumente/web/new%20site/frames2/Dokumente.htm

[Vince Malfara]

I wonder if the USAAF plane in the background isn't an Aeronca Grasshopper L-3C or it could be an Piper L-4

Vince...

[edwest]

Unless we are allowed to see the photo, knowing if there are any clues to its location would be helpful. Is it possible the US plane is a captured example? Is it possible those in the area are British or Americans (if any people are in the photo)? Or perhaps there is a building or other landmark in view that would help I.D. the location.



Ed

[Vince Malfara]

Hi Ed

The photo was there a few minutes ago, hence my comments on the USAAF airplane. Don't know where it's gone????

Vince...

[Vince Malfara]

It's in post# 10

[edNorth]

With GMC Wapons Carrier Ambulance, Piper L-4 Grasshopper (!) and Jeep in bckground, remains of typische Luftwaffe camo netting, near burnt out center fuselage He 111 H-6 4962 SF+CY, I say spring 1945 at the earliest. Location could be anywhere from France to Austria. -Ed

[edwest]

The photo is odd. On the right side is a dark area with a building/house and a vertical pole and then a light area above it as if there was some artificial elimination of part of the image, leaving a light area. It just looks so inconsistent to me.



Ed

[robinh]

Got the photo in an antique store with 3 other German ww2 but not Luftwaffe related photos. I did not notice the other US vehicles in the background. You people have better eyes than me I guess. Did not realize that was camo netting on foreground. I also note 3 or 4 power (communication?) poles in background by buildings. If markings are late war than I guess this aircraft would be down in Europe somewhere. Is there a log of downed Luft planes anywhere?

I now also note a wingtip or tailtip just showing on the left foreground of the photo. Maybe propeller edge?

Back of photo is marked "VELOX" and has an inkstamp "764V"

With a 10X eyepiece I maybe see one person standing by the jeep in the far background. Too small and too fuzzy for any id to me.

As to the "light" area on right side of photo. I see a haze in the hills of the background. Maybe a cloudy sky? Also remains of a fingerprint that won't wipe off in the right hand upper corner. Thx.

I did not notice the US vehicles in the background before. Good eyes.

I got the photo and 3 other German (non Luft related) photos at an antique shop.

I see with a 10x eyepiece one man by the jeep but too small and fuzzy to tell anything. Also see a few power (communication?) poles back by the buildings.

The photo shows a haze (mist?) in the background against the hills. Maybe a cloudy sky? The top right corner of photo has a part fingerprint that won't rub off too.

Now note that a wingtip or tail tip shows a little in the left side of photo.

Thx for all the help.

[edNorth]

This is to me an obvious ground loss (ether by strafing or set on fire before surrendering), therefore crew likely not recorded in any NVM - possibly even burned by advancing armies. This was not a crash, rather plane was parked there, or towed there from nearby field - which to me seems be possibly dispersed airstrip, not "fixed base" airport (airbase). Codes outlined like that may indicate it was previously with some School or Auxilliary unit. -Ed

[Merlin]

The presentation of the fuselage code is typical for He 111 aircraft of Schleppgruppe 1 during the last month of WW II. Their last base was Hohenmauth (today Vysoké Mýto) some 30km east of Pardubice in the Czech Republic. All their remaining aircraft were blown up by the unit on VE day. I don’t knew if US forces really moved until this location in May 1945 before they gave up the area and the Russians moved in.

[Matti Salonen]

Is it 4952 or 4962?

Matti

[robinh]

Again with 10x eyepiece it is clearly 4962. If werknummers are in number order it appears to me to be a HE111H built in 1940?

Earlier a member suggested that the SF code might be from Berlin - Johannistal airbase and the plane used be for Luftwaffe staff use. Any other confirmation known of this?

[Merlin]

The registration SF+CY belonged to the He 111H-6 WNr. 4962, manufactured by Heinkel at Rostock in February 1942.

[edwest]

Got the photo in an antique store with 3 other German ww2 but not Luftwaffe related photos. I did not notice the other US vehicles in the background. You people have better eyes than me I guess. Did not realize that was camo netting on foreground. I also note 3 or 4 power (communication?) poles in background by buildings. If markings are late war than I guess this aircraft would be down in Europe somewhere. Is there a log of downed Luft planes anywhere?

I now also note a wingtip or tailtip just showing on the left foreground of the photo. Maybe propeller edge?

Back of photo is marked "VELOX" and has an inkstamp "764V"

With a 10X eyepiece I maybe see one person standing by the jeep in the far background. Too small and too fuzzy for any id to me.

As to the "light" area on right side of photo. I see a haze in the hills of the background. Maybe a cloudy sky? Also remains of a fingerprint that won't wipe off in the right hand upper corner. Thx.

I did not notice the US vehicles in the background before. Good eyes.

I got the photo and 3 other German (non Luft related) photos at an antique shop.

I see with a 10x eyepiece one man by the jeep but too small and fuzzy to tell anything. Also see a few power (communication?) poles back by the buildings.

The photo shows a haze (mist?) in the background against the hills. Maybe a cloudy sky? The top right corner of photo has a part fingerprint that won't rub off too.

Now note that a wingtip or tail tip shows a little in the left side of photo.

Thx for all the help.



Hi,

VELOX is a common watermark found on German photos or photos taken in other countries that used this type of photo paper. The fingerprint does appear from time to time on period photos. A haze sounds right. My attempt to locate the aircraft's letter code has turned up no reference.

Thanks for posting.



Ed

[edwest]

The presentation of the fuselage code is typical for He 111 aircraft of Schleppgruppe 1 during the last month of WW II. Their last base was Hohenmauth (today Vysoké Mýto) some 30km east of Pardubice in the Czech Republic. All their remaining aircraft were blown up by the unit on VE day. I don’t knew if US forces really moved until this location in May 1945 before they gave up the area and the Russians moved in.



Yes, the type of burning shown is typical for aircraft that had an explosive charge set around the midsection of the aircraft to deny its use by enemy forces. I have seen similar. It may be a German photo that fell into Allied hands.



Ed

[robinh]

Merlin writes that the SF code might have been assigned to Schleppgruppe 1 in the Czech area. Is that information listed in a reference book or archive?

Also what archive has the build information for the HE111's?

Thank you for all the great research.

[edwest]

I'm not sure about the SF code. It seems Schleppgruppe 1 did not operate with this aircraft. However, toward the end of the war, whatever was available may have been used. The codes used were F7+ and 6Z+.

https://www.asisbiz.com/Luftwaffe/schlep1.html


From another forum: "There is a complete and very detailed history of Schleppgruppe 1/Gruppe "Herzog" in an article by Georg Schlaug published in Jet & Prop magazin, Heft 2/2000, pages 57-65. It covers all of its operations to Posen, Glogau and Breslau, January to April 1945."


Ed

[Clint Mitchell]

http://www.ww2.dk/air/transport/schlep1.htm

[robinh]

The CY code seems from literature to be the 3rd airplane in the 14th Staffel. Would this seem to indicate the SF unit code to be a larger geschwader?

[robinh]

A google request says that over 7000 HE-111 bombers were produced. Is there any archive that has all records to request a history of a specific He-111 aircraft?

[RT]

All the data known has been given, nd no there is no complete archives, just pièces to put together,
Code SF+CY , is not an unit code but the own code of the plane, unique nd for all is live long, when Merlin says it has been used by the SchleppGr.1 is in ref. of the unusual shape of the letters.

Rémi

[robinh]

Just to summarize for my complete understanding:

He111 H-6 WNr. 4962 was built at Heinkel factory-Rostock in 1942 and assigned the code SF + CY. This code was apparently kept for the operational life of the aircraft and used by unidentified (at this time) groups. The outline of the code letters hint at useage by a school or special use group. The plane appears to have been destroyed on ground before capture at wars end.

Thanks to all for the fun research and great information.

[edNorth]

All except this is part " and used by unidentified (at this time) groups". Not exactly correct. SF+ was never a unit or group code. Period. A good book on Luftwaffe markings at your local library (?) or Interlibrary loan is a must read for you now. There is no He 111 database online, only Luftwaffe Bulletin Board (for German language users) does have Stammkennzeichen database (but quality there is questionable).

You must realize there was Unit Letter System and Stammkennung (besides other code-letter and / or symbols-markings used by fighter schools and the fighter units) = Four basic "systems" (and numerous other "localized" markings or nummerals on fins/rudder). Stammkennung (Stammkennzeichen) as carried by this He 111 H-6 was used (mostly) by ALL other units than the pure fighting units. It was safety code (not a registration (altho it worked in similar ways - I know - I did hold CPL licence for decades) used in radio (eg. morse) and visual communications at airports and there was (supposably) no other plane with same code letters at same time. Some say this was "factory code", but that is really confusion with Factory Ferry codes assigned and used first from year 1937 - and having first two as Factory Letters (eg. JU+xx, HE+xx, DO+xx, FO+xx, WE+xx etc.)

[edwest]

edNorth is correct. There is a database from the now closed Luftwaffe Experten Message Board that can still be accessed by former members, plus some some archives. There was an attempt made, a valiant attempt by dedicated people, to get as many four letter/number, and other Luftwaffe codes listed. Your SF+ code was there but not the CY part.

At this point, unless someone has more information, your aircraft is difficult to identify as to who it operated with. It is true that letter and number shapes showed variations that may point a researcher in the correct direction. Other clues sometimes appear that rely on a good memory, broad knowledge and attention to what may appear to be trivial or subtle details. I've learned a lot but surprises still appear to this day.



Ed

[robinh]

Thank you again for expanding on my understanding.

Maybe it would be safe to say from the SF + CY code that the plane was probably not ever assigned to a typical combat geschwader but was placed in a special use group. The paint type indicates it stayed in the central Europe area and not on the eastern front or mediterrean areas?

[edNorth]

edNorth is correct. There is a database from the now closed Luftwaffe Experten Message Board that can still be accessed by former members, plus some some archives.

Some confusion here. I was not referring to that one. The LBB is another, an separate database (in database format), the L(E)MB (RIP) one was just an poorly edited xls in html format.

LBB is here, aka also luftarchiv.de

http://www.luftwaffe-bullet-board.com/viewforum.php?f=2

Seems the database has gone?

[edNorth]

Thank you again for expanding on my understanding.

Maybe it would be safe to say from the SF + CY code that the plane was probably not ever assigned to a typical combat geschwader but was placed in a special use group. The paint type indicates it stayed in the central Europe area and not on the eastern front or mediterrean areas?

It seems indeed having previous code painted out. Thus quite the contrary, it could have had Stkz., then unitcode (and many of them!), and again Stkx. etc. before beeing burned.

Example is one Fw 200 Condor that had 8 (eight) times different indentities: Namly W.Nr. 2895 (FW 200 A-03 / S3) D-AMHC, WL-AMHC, F8+HH, TK+BS, D-AMHC, TK+BS, F8+DU, F8+MV.

-Ed

[robinh]

Excuse me for misunderstanding.

It sounded to me that Merlin had records of the aircraft being assigned the code SF + CY from the factory. It now appears that this could have been painted on at any time for a special unit before end of war and aircraft destroyed before capture?

[Nick Beale]

Excuse me for misunderstanding.

It sounded to me that Merlin had records of the aircraft being assigned the code SF + CY from the factory. It now appears that this could have been painted on at any time for a special unit before end of war and aircraft destroyed before capture?

The aircraft was probably marked as SF+CY by the time it left the factory and was accepted by the Luftwaffe. As Ed says, such letters could be used as the aircraft's radio callsign throughout its life, even if it also received operational unit markings, and would also appear in documentation (its maintenance history for example).

[Jim P.]

He 111H-6, 4962, n.n., , , , Fl.Ber.G.L., , , , , 02-Apr-44, Bruchlandung., , Lfl.Reich, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/778, Flzg.-Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw., p.117, , Johannisthal, 15%, H, , ,

[edNorth]

Jim P, same info as in reply #7.
Photo likely taken full year later, in my opinion, but unit may have stayed the same.
-Ed

[robinh]

"RT" and "Jim P" apparently have access to the German archives Luftwaffe info in section RL 2 III/778 that lists HE111-H #4962 to be crashed with 15% damage in 02 Apr 44 and assigned to the transport unit for high officers (Fl. Bereitschaft G. L.) at Berlin-Johannistal airfield.

Perhaps the plane got repaired and moved. The photo clearly shows US troops at the destroyed plane probably at a later date (since US troops were not at Berlin at end of war).

I have to conclude that the plane unit assignment and final location are not fully known at this time.

A neat mystery. This has been a very fun project for me. Many thanks to all that helped with it.

[edNorth]

"RT" and "Jim P" apparently have access to the German archives Luftwaffe info in section RL 2 III/778 that lists HE111-H #4962

Well, I actually owe this series of document microfiche. Bought from Germany. Original page is attached where report of 4962 is found at.
This is normaly referred to as "The Schulen" losses, against "Fighting units" were in a different series of records (reports), issued by GQM 4.Abt. on dayly bases thrughout the European War 1939/1945.

http://i68.tinypic.com/2qal8uq.jpg

-Ed

PS. Writing "HE111-H" is incorrect, as they could tell you in school, proper writing is one of keys to (good) research.
Correct writing is " He 111 H " - because manufacturer (factory) Heinkel was abbrevated by the German Air Ministry to just Capital "H" and lower case "e" and sub-version here was "H" - that differed from, for example, the He 111 P - by the type and version of engines used. The He 111 H-6 had 2 x Jumo 211 J engines with VS II wooden bladed propellers, and incidentally the H-6 was basically a Level-Bomber or Torpedo Bomber, and not a transport, altho it was easily converted to many roles..

Unit flying/using W.Nr. 4962 in April 1944 was correctly the "Flugbereit Generalluftzeugmeister" who incidentally was Chief of the RLM.

[robinh]

Thanks for the proper nomenclature and the archive page copy for He 111 H-6 Wnr. 4962.

Now if someone could recognize the buildings and background of the airfield the destroyed plane resides in I would know about all the info you could get on the aircraft. Chances there one in a very large number. Still a very fun journey and very educational for me.