looking for info on HE-111 losses over Holland, 10th may 1940

[kiwi123]

Hi all,

For a new artwork I'm doing I would like to find out markings and units of he-111 that were shot down over Holland in the morning of the 10th of May, 1940. These would be he-111 that attacked Waalhaven and were shot down by fokker G.I.a of the 3rd JaVA.

Any help would be appreciated !

Thanks,

Wiek Luijken

www.luijken.com

[kiwi123]

Nobody ? I guess the airwar over the Netherlands isn't a very popular topic, is it ?

[Peter Cornwell]

Patience is a virtue.

Stab KG4 Heinkel He111P (2909). Shot down by Fokker G1 of 3-II-1 (1e Lt Noomen & Korp de Vries) during sortie to Rotterdam and belly-landed in St Annapolder between Rockanje and Hellevoetsluis, south of Zwartedijk 4.15 a.m. Oberfw E-R. Frotscher killed. Oberst M. Fiebig (Geschwaderkommodore), Oberlt K. Born, Oberfw O. Hlubek, and Oberfw O. Blank captured unhurt. Aircraft 5J+DA a write-off.

Stab KG4 Heinkel He111P. Returned badly damaged by flak and Fokker G1 of 3-II-1 (1e Lt. A. van Oorschot and Sgt. W. P. Wesly) over Waalhaven 4.10 a.m. Oberlt Andersch unhurt. Fw P-K. Schiel badly wounded, admitted to hospital in Delmenhorst. Fw H. L. Romatowsky and Uffz H. Wiegand slightly wounded. Aircraft damaged but repairable.

1./KG4 Heinkel He111P. Crashed on take-off from Gütersloh for sortie to attack Ypenburg 3.15 a.m. Uffz K. Hirn and Uffz E. Richter killed. Uffz H. Trilling badly injured. Aircraft 5J+FH a write-off.

1./KG4 Heinkel He111P (1570). Returned damaged by flak south of Dordrecht. Uffz H. Scharf badly wounded. Aircraft repairable.

2./KG4 Heinkel He111P (4570). Shot down by Fokker G1 of 3-II-1 south of Dordrecht and crashlanded between Goudswaard and Piershil 4.15 a.m. Gefr H. Pälchen and Gefr K. Klemm badly wounded. Aircraft destroyed by crew.

4./KG4 Heinkel He111P. Hit by flak and believed collided with wingman. Crashed outside northern boundary of Soesterberg airfield 4.30 a.m. Lt A. Bohnenkamp, Uffz H. Heimsath, Hauptgefr W. Mittelhäuser, and Obergefr W. Römer killed. Aircraft a write-off.

4./KG4 Heinkel He111P. Believe brought down in collision with He111 hit by flak and. crashed outside northern boundary of Soesterberg airfield 4.30 a.m. Oberlt P. von zu Mühlen, Uffz P. Kirsch, Obergefr W. Dreyer, and Gefr E. King killed. Aircraft a write-off.

5./KG4 Heinkel He111P-2 (3556). Believed shot down by Fokker G1 of 3-II-1 over Waalhaven. Oberlt H. Roth, Uffz H. Heinig, and Obergefr E. Stephan captured slightly wounded. Aircraft a write-off.

5./KG4 Heinkel He111P. Returned hit by flak over Waalhaven. Oberfw F. Röhrborn slightly wounded. Aircraft damaged but repairable.

5./KG4 Heinkel He111P. Shot down during attack on Waalhaven by Fokker G1 of 3-II-1 (Sgt Souffree & Sgt de Man) and belly-landed 1 km south of Zevenbergschehoek 7.00 a.m. Oberfw H. Ganss killed. Oberlt R. Ganzert, Oberfw E. Tischer, and Gefr H. Dertinger captured unhurt. Aircraft 5J+DN a write-off.

5./KG4 Heinkel He111P. Shot down by Fokker G1 of 3-II-1 (1e Lt Kuipers & Sgt Venema) and crashlanded at Alblasserdam, near Waalhaven 4.15 a.m. Uffz H. Zitzmann captured badly wounded, treated at Missiehaus Paters van Nuland. Uffz G. Klenk, Uffz W. Wiebke, and Gefr R. Schlegel captured unhurt. Aircraft 5J+JN a write-off.

7./KG4 Heinkel He111P (2633). Damaged by flak during attack on Schiphol and forced-landed at Zwanenburg 4.00 a.m. Lt V. Pollitz, Uffz B. Hintze, Uffz E. Schubert, and Obergefr H. Röthig captured unhurt. Aircraft 5J+PR a write-off.

7./KG4 Junkers Ju88A-1 (3040). Crashed at Gross-Mackenstedt shortly after take-off from Delmenhorst for attack on Bergen airfield; exact cause unknown. Lt H-J. Schwartz, Oberfw W. Voigt, and Obergefr H. Wilshaus killed. Uffz W. Grossmann mortally injured, later died. Aircraft a 5J+HR a write-off.

8./KG4 Junkers Ju88A-1. Shot down by own flak east of Arlon and crashed between Brouch and Reckingen following attack on Schiphol 4.30 a.m. Fw F. Wehrkoff, Fw W. Müller killed. Uffz W. Kunath baled out but killed. Aircraft a write-off.

9./KG4 Heinkel He111P (1591). Failed to return from attack on Bergen and crashed near Goudswaard, south-west of Rotterdam 4.15 a.m. Lt H-W. Paas, Uffz W. Hufnagel, Uffz F. Lewandofski, and Obergefr E. Stölzel believed captured. Aircraft 5J+ST a write-off.

9./KG4 Junkers Ju88A-1 (3041). Believed shot down by Fokker DXXI during dawn attack on Schiphol and crashed by the Hoofdweg, north of Hoofddorp, near Vijfhuizen 4.15 a.m. Gefr F. Strada killed. Oberlt F-K. Rinck, Oberfw W. Rüther, and Gefr F. Wissing captured unhurt. Aircraft 5J+GT a write-off.

9./KG4 Junkers Ju88A-1 (6018). Shot down during dawn attack on Schiphol and crashed in the IJsselmeer 4.15 a.m. Lt R. Graf, Oberfw R. Mölle, Uffz O. Pälchen, and Obergefr G. Neuber killed. Aircraft 5J+AT lost.

9./KG4 Junkers Ju88A-1 (3035). Failed to return from dawn attack on Schiphol. Believed shot down by flak and crashed in the IJsselmeer off Sloten 4.15 a.m. Lt G. Hinsch, Obergefr K. Danzmair, and Obergefr A. Fölsch killed. Uffz E. Herzog missing. Aircraft 5J+IT lost.

[steve sheridan]

Hiya Peter,
Excellent listing of losses from KG4 lost on 10.5.40, and in answer to Kiwi 123's original post.

I did find a couple of the W.Nr's described as Heinkel 111P-' s strange though, these according to my information were later He111H-6 models!
although i stand to be corrected.

W.Nr 4570 2/KG4 Gefr. Palchen's a/c
W.Nr 3556 5/KG4 Oblt Hubert Roth's a/c

Would welcome any further confirmation on these W.Nr's , and i would also be interested to know whether any kind soul has any Staffel Kapitan listings for KG4 during this period.
Best Regs,
Steve.

[kiwi123]

Peter, thank you very much !

[Skyraider3D]

Excellent info indeed! Nice one Peter!

[David Ransome]

Hi,

I have 3556 as an H-5 which was still around in September 1940, and the other as an H-6. In the May 1940 (and other) loss records I have found many entries with transposed digits in the WNrs - maybe these are another two examples?

Regards,

David

[Jim P.]

Switch the first two digits on each and your looking at H-2 territory.

[Jaap Woortman]

5./KG4 Heinkel He111P. Shot down by Fokker G1 of 3-II-1 (1e Lt Kuipers & Sgt Venema) and crashlanded at Alblasserdam, near Waalhaven 4.15 a.m. Uffz H. Zitzmann captured badly wounded, treated at Missiehaus Paters van Nuland. Uffz G. Klenk, Uffz W. Wiebke, and Gefr R. Schlegel captured unhurt. Aircraft 5J+JN a write-off.


I don't think that the 5J+JN has made a crashlanding near Alblasserdam. In the information itself it is said that Uffz H.Zitzmann has been treated at the Missiehouse of the Paters van Nuland. Nuland is about 120 km from Alblasserdam. The correct crashplace is Rosmalen. Rosmalen is close to Nuland.

I also have a question. After the first attack of the planes of KG 4, strengthened with KGr 126, at the airfields in the Netherlands, I./KG 4 was used for bringing supplies to the airborne troops. See also Gundelachs book about KG 4 at page 71. II./KG 4 and III./KG 4 were operating in support of the 18 Army. The 9.Panzer-Division, as part of the 26th Army Corps, which belongs to the 18th Army, had the goal to go as fast as possible to the Moerdijkbridge. To make contact with the airborne troops.
Therefore they have to pass the Peel-Raam defence-line in East Brabant. Does someone know if the planes of II. and III./KG 4 have made attacks at this defence-line at places like Mill and later St.Oedenrode and Best.
According to the official Dutch Militairy History Stuka's have attacked the defence-line at Mill.
Looking forward for your answers,

Jaap Woortman
Secretary Dutch Study Group Airwar 1939-1945

[rob van den nieuwendijk]

Hello Peter and Jaap,

The NVM states that
Pilot Uffz Gotthold Klenk
BS Gefr Rudolf Schlegel
BF Uffz Hans Zitzmann
BM Uffz Willi Wiebke

"Flugzeug b. Waalhaven notgelandet." Lazarett Zitzmann unkown. Klenk, Schlegel and Wiebke returned from Dutch POW on 16 May 40. Klenk KIA 14.01.45, Schlegel MIA 17.09.43.

Regards,
Rob

[rob van den nieuwendijk]

Forgot some details -

There was a Nachtrag in the NVM -
Uffz Zitzmann "abgegeben an Lazarett Krankenhaus Hertogenbosch Holland, Feldpost nr 27142" Later the entry from Krankenhaus till Feldpostnr was changed in "Dienststelle Feldpostnr 18985.

Interesting to note that Klenk had also been shot down over Poland and had returned from Polish POW on 3 Oct 39.

Regards
Rob

[Marius]

The Heinkel of Klenk was not shot down (1.9.1939 over Poland). Observer Hölscher meant it was maybe (!!) a splinter from Polish AA. The damage itself was not registered. Fact is that many He 111`s had engine problems then (serious difficulties with Daimler Benz DB 601).

Marius

[Peter Cornwell]

I don't think that the 5J+JN has made a crashlanding near Alblasserdam. In the information itself it is said that Uffz H.Zitzmann has been treated at the Missiehouse of the Paters van Nuland. Nuland is about 120 km from Alblasserdam. The correct crashplace is Rosmalen. Rosmalen is close to Nuland.

Jaap Woortman
Secretary Dutch Study Group Airwar 1939-1945

Thank you Jaap. While I am happy to accept that the 5J+JN may have come down at Rosmalen and not Alblasserdam, can I ask is there any evidence beyond the proximity of the hospital at Nuland to support this claim ?

The crash site of the aircraft is shown as Alblasserdam in the Weisz manuscript and also Bulletin Air War No.247 (T114) produced by your own Study Group. This source also shows a He111 down at Rosmalen on that day but it remained unidentified (T128A).

Any clarification appreciated.

[Jaap Woortman]

The crash site of the aircraft is shown as Alblasserdam in the Weisz manuscript and also Bulletin Air War No.247 (T114) produced by your own Study Group. This source also shows a He111 down at Rosmalen on that day but it remained unidentified (T128A).

Any clarification appreciated.

The inventarisation project of all aircraft lost over the Netherlands during WWII of the Study Group Airwar 1939-1945, published every month in our Bulletin Air War, is an ongoing project for 6 years now. Every time new evidence is found the list is updated. Therfore I am very happy with this discussion. A picture of the He 5J+JN is published in Onderdrukking en Verzet. Nederland in oorlogstijd. Amsterdam. Deel 1, page 167. See appendix. Photo caption in translation:"German airplane at May 10th shotdown near Den Bosch" Photo R.C. Photo agency "The South". I will check if the book of Hermens about Rosmalen during WWII also has information about this subject.
This information has also been send to the coordinator of our inventarisation project.

Jaap

[Hans Nauta]

Dear Peter,

I doubt wether 5J+ST was detailed to Bergen as this airfield was attacked by 7./KG4.

Regards,
Hans Nauta

[Peter Cornwell]

Jaap, Rob, Hans,

Thanks for your input. It is clear that Rosmalen and not Alblasserdam is the correct location & makes excellent sense of all the information. I have amended the entry as follows:

5./KG4 Heinkel He111P. Shot down by Fokker G1 of 3-II-1 (1e Lt Kuipers & Sgt Venema) and belly-landed at Rosmalen, north of 's-Hertogenbosch, 4.15 a.m. Uffz H. Zitzmann captured badly wounded, treated at Missiehaus Paters van Nuland. Uffz G. Klenk, Uffz W. Wiebke, and Gefr R. Schlegel captured unhurt. Aircraft 5J+JN a write-off.

Jaap, I understand very well indeed that research is an iterative process so keep up the good work - all of you.

[kiwi123]

Maybe some people can add to this ? I've tried to find the corresponding fokker G.I. number for each 111 loss.

Stab KG4 Heinkel He111P (2909). Shot down by Fokker G1 of 3-II-1 (1e Lt Noomen & Korp de Vries) during sortie to Rotterdam and belly-landed in St Annapolder between Rockanje and Hellevoetsluis, south of Zwartedijk 4.15 a.m. Oberfw E-R. Frotscher killed. Oberst M. Fiebig (Geschwaderkommodore), Oberlt K. Born, Oberfw O. Hlubek, and Oberfw O. Blank captured unhurt. Aircraft 5J+DA a write-off.
Shot down by 312


Stab KG4 Heinkel He111P. Returned badly damaged by flak and Fokker G1 of 3-II-1 (1e Lt. A. van Oorschot and Sgt. W. P. Wesly) over Waalhaven 4.10 a.m. Oberlt Andersch unhurt. Fw P-K. Schiel badly wounded, admitted to hospital in Delmenhorst. Fw H. L. Romatowsky and Uffz H. Wiegand slightly wounded. Aircraft damaged but repairable.
Shot at by 315?


2./KG4 Heinkel He111P (4570). Shot down by Fokker G1 of 3-II-1 south of Dordrecht and crashlanded between Goudswaard and Piershil 4.15 a.m. Gefr H. Pälchen and Gefr K. Klemm badly wounded. Aircraft destroyed by crew.
Shot down by 302/312/328?


5./KG4 Heinkel He111P-2 (3556). Believed shot down by Fokker G1 of 3-II-1 over Waalhaven. Oberlt H. Roth, Uffz H. Heinig, and Obergefr E. Stephan captured slightly wounded. Aircraft a write-off.
Shot down by 302/312/328?


5./KG4 Heinkel He111P. Shot down during attack on Waalhaven by Fokker G1 of 3-II-1 (Sgt Souffree & Sgt de Man) and belly-landed 1 km south of Zevenbergschehoek 7.00 a.m. Oberfw H. Ganss killed. Oberlt R. Ganzert, Oberfw E. Tischer, and Gefr H. Dertinger captured unhurt. Aircraft 5J+DN a write-off.
Shot down by 328

5./KG4 Heinkel He111P. Shot down by Fokker G1 of 3-II-1 (1e Lt Kuipers & Sgt Venema) and crashlanded at Alblasserdam, near Waalhaven 4.15 a.m. Uffz H. Zitzmann captured badly wounded, treated at Missiehaus Paters van Nuland. Uffz G. Klenk, Uffz W. Wiebke, and Gefr R. Schlegel captured unhurt. Aircraft 5J+JN a write-off.
Shot down by 302

[kiwi123]

I am looking for the info for this piece, which is not final by the way:

http://kiwi123.military-meshes.com/ontheprowl.jpg
(http://kiwi123.military-meshes.com/ontheprowl.jpg)

[mathieu]

Hei kiwi 123,

Kuipers and Venema did not fly the 302, but the 319. It was one of the 2 G.1's that landed on Waalhaven, the other one being the 312 with P. Noomen as pilot.

Best regards,

Mathieu

www.fokker-g1.nl (http://www.fokker-g1.nl)

[kiwi123]

I've collated the numbers fromhttp://www.bhummel.dds.nl/gif/3JaVAWH.html

302 Om 3.51 gestart, schoot twee He-111s neer en beschadigde een derde; met beschadigde motor op Waalhaven geland, kon niet meer starten. Piloot J.P.Kuipers voegde zich met schutter J.R.Venema bij de opstelling van het 51e Pel.Lu.Mitr.. Vlak ten noorden van Waalhaven. Venema sneuvelt hier. Kuipers ontsnapt 's nachts in een roeiboot naar de noordelijke Maasoever..

[Jaap Woortman]

Maybe some people can add to this? I've tried to find the corresponding Fokker G.I. number for each 111 loss.

Now we come to the most difficult part. Who has shot down who! Why difficult? Very simple. In one hand we have the German losses. Mostly proven, not always, by primary sources. And in the other hand we have the Dutch claims. Mostly not proven by primary sources. Many Dutch combat reports have been written after 1945. In many cases more then five years after it has happened. These reports have been used by Molenaar in his work: De luchtverdediging in de meidagen 1940. Till now the standard work about the airwar in Holland during the days in May 1940. It is obvious that his work is not 100% reliable, but his files can be checked in the archives of the NIMH at The Hague.
We have something that Molenaar did not have had and that is 60 years of research and that helps us in coming as close as possible to what has really happened at that day, at that hour, at that place.
But please gentlemen, use primary sources and mention your sources. Otherwise the discussion will end in disaster.

Kiwi123, I love your painting. Very nice. But are sure that Geschwaderkommodore Fiebig was shot down before the attack at the Dutch airfields? The Fokker G-1 of Noomen has shot down two He 111's who had bombed Waalhaven! Molenaar page 233. And I do not believe that they were still flying after the bombardement in this kind of formation.

Jaap

[kiwi123]

Hi Jaap, thanks for your reply ! The reason I post the image is because I would like it to be as accurate as possible (I basically have a few days left before I need to finish it). The idea is that this depicts the bombers returning home after bombing waalhaven. Why wouldn't they fly back in formation (as that would still give maximum protection with their crossfire) ?

[Skyraider3D]

Maybe somebody can confirm or deny... did the Dutch AAA defenses look as displayed (dense, black puffs)? I would expect less AAA, more light calibre (tracers rather than puffs) and the 40mm Bofors to have smaller, lighter coloured puffs. Currently it reminds me of 88mm flak over Germany.

[Jaap Woortman]

Hi Jaap, thanks for your reply ! The reason I post the image is because I would like it to be as accurate as possible (I basically have a few days left before I need to finish it). The idea is that this depicts the bombers returning home after bombing Waalhaven. Why wouldn't they fly back in formation (as that would still give maximum protection with their crossfire) ?

I can understand your idea, but what about the 7 pcs 7,5 cm LuA(AAA, Flak) around Waalhaven? Maybe they have re-assembled after the attack in close formation but that must have been not over the direct area around Rotterdam. Maybe re-assembling over Brabant. By the way Rockanje-Hellevoetsluis is south-west of Rotterdam and that is not the direction you have to fly if you want to go to Germany.
But of course it is the liberty of the painter! I was not there!

Jaap

[mathieu]

@ Kiwi,

There always has been confusion about what happened when and were!
The last years many photos emerged via Ebay and together with help of books like mr Malan wrote I think we are allowed to say ( no 100% of course) that Kuipers flew the 319. Venema got killed when he tried to leave the aircraft after he had returned to the aircraft to pick up the machine gun. There are published 2 articles in the newsletter from the Fokker G.1 association about the 319, when I come home from Nigeria I'll scan them for you.

Best regards,

Mathieu

www.fokker-g1.nl

[kiwi123]

The final result:
http://kiwi123.military-meshes.com/ontheprowl.jpg

This is a depiction of the Fokker G.I.a 312 flown by P. Noomen with H. de Vries as gunner. It started as first G.I.a during the bombardment of Waalhaven (Rotterdam) airbase on the 10th of May, 1940. After shooting down 2 Heinkel 111s it landed back at Waalhaven with a punctured fuel tank and the right engine stopped.
The closest Heinkel is 5J+DA, of stab KG4, which belly landed in St. Annapolder with one crew member killed. The geschwaderkommodore Oberst Fiebig and everyone else in the crew were captured unhurt.

Thanks everyone for their help !

[Skyraider3D]

Great stuff Wiek, and great research everyone else too! :)

[wiegand]

[quote=kiwi123;30805]Stab KG4 Heinkel He111P. Returned badly damaged by flak and Fokker G1 of 3-II-1 (1e Lt. A. van Oorschot and Sgt. W. P. Wesly) over Waalhaven 4.10 a.m. Oberlt Andersch unhurt. Fw P-K. Schiel badly wounded, admitted to hospital in Delmenhorst. Fw H. L. Romatowsky and Uffz H. Wiegand slightly wounded. Aircraft damaged but repairable.quote]

Peter, et all,

Any more info on Uffz H. Wiegand. Wondering if this is same Oblt. H-H Wiegand later of 5./KG 4

[Peter Cornwell]

Wiegand,

Not the same man. Uffz Heinz WIEGAND (b.27.1.1915) of Stab KG4 wounded 10 May 1940. Oberlt Hans-Heinrich WIEGAND (b.19.10.1911) of 5./KG4 killed 7 September 1940. I guess they could be brothers but doubt it very much indeeed, the first being born in Dusseldorf and the other in Wasenberg.

[wiegand]

Wiegand,

Not the same man. Uffz Heinz WIEGAND (b.27.1.1915) of Stab KG4 wounded 10 May 1940. Oberlt Hans-Heinrich WIEGAND (b.19.10.1911) of 5./KG4 killed 7 September 1940. I guess they could be brothers but doubt it very much indeeed, the first being born in Dusseldorf and the other in Wasenberg.

He had an uncle in heer so not same guy.

Thanks as always, Peter.
Cheers.

[steve sheridan]

Hi Kiwi123,
Great image by the way, very authentic.
I am using this as my screen saver! Do you have any more work like this?

Best regs,
Steve.l

[Foute Man]

Hi Kiwi123

Are you sure about using green for the ID letter? Always thought that a Stabstaffel aircraft had a blue ID letter.

So it should be 5J+DA (Geschwaderstab) or 5J+AD (Gruppestab)

groeten van de Foute Man

[Peter Cornwell]

Not addressed to me I know but Green would be correct. I believe that Blue was normally reserved for aircraft of a IV Gruppe.

[Foute Man]

Well, your message made do a quick search on the internet. This site http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/markings.html mentions that both colors were used by geschwader and gruppestab. So both colors are right while I believed there was a difference.

I know blue was used as color for a 4th staffel in a Jagdgeschwader. In a bomber unit a 4th staffel could be recognized by the 4th digit in the ID nr

Thanks for the feedback

groeten