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Parabellum
13th January 2007, 18:40
Hi,
I wonder if...
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Bilder/Ju%2052/Ju%2052I3m-9.jpg
... such a Ju-52 with red crosses and no balkan crosses could have had a 3rd reich's svastika emblem painted on the moving part of the tail fin?
Any idea?
Cheers,

Ruy Horta
13th January 2007, 18:49
Just compare with this He 59

http://membres.lycos.fr/seaplanespages/seaplanes/picts/he_59.jpg

obdl3945
13th January 2007, 20:14
This Ju52 has a small eagle emblem on leading edge of fin. He59 ambulances were also seen with this eagle (although not visible in this photo) and the swastika displayed as seen here - 'square' on, with its 'arms' extending to the border of the white circle, rather than at the 'angled' position on other military aircraft. This combination of eagle emblem and 'squared' swastika was the Reichsdiestflagge, and has also been noted on air sea resuce Do24s. It may well have been applied like this to the Ju52 in the photo.

Parabellum
13th January 2007, 20:23
Ok guys,
Thank you four informations! :)
@ obdl3945 : any idea of the place where I could get visual confirmation of what you have said about the "Reichdienstflagge" with Ju52?
Cheers,

obdl3945
13th January 2007, 21:38
Parabellum...

I'm having great difficulty attaching items from my pc here, so I will give you the link instead: www.wp.scn.ru (http://www.wp.scn.ru)

When you get through there, select Transport/Airliners from the World War II category, then scroll down the list on the left hand side of your screen and select Junkers Ju52. On the following screen, select Germany (Nazi) 40 from the nationality categories in the middle of your screen (you may have to scroll down slightly to see these) and then you will get a list on the right hand side of the screen showing the content of eage page. On page one, I think, there's a Ju52 with Reichsluftdienst marked next to it. Select that one and use your best French to translate the caption... :D I can help with that too, if need be. There's also a very good representation of the Reichsdienstflagge there too, but you'll need to click on the aircraft colour plate and flag separately to see them properly.

Hals und Beinbruch... :)

Parabellum
13th January 2007, 21:59
@ obdl3945 : Target hit! Tks! :)
Then, just need a pic of such markings on Ju 52 tails, to be fully convinced... hope I'll find it!

Ruy Horta
13th January 2007, 22:34
My apologies, but I have been upgrading, running test and changing a number of parameters today.

Problem has been solved.
All because of a missing slash (/).

Here's the image as part of another test (uploading from an URL).

Parabellum
13th January 2007, 22:52
Nice profile, Ruy! :) Tks for help!
Have you ever seen a photo-evidence of this type of paint-markings?
Cheers,

obdl3945
13th January 2007, 23:00
Parabellum...

No problem... glad it worked... :) . Don't know if you've noticed it yet, but the aircraft in the photo, then the colour profile, and now Roy's thumbnail picture, all have sequential codes... D-TABW, X and Y. Perhaps they were part of a block of machines coming off the production line.

Parabellum
14th January 2007, 01:48
@ obdl3945
W, X, Y... interesting indeed! :)
But only one photo of W..., still looking after other ones!
Cheers,

Peter Achs
14th January 2007, 02:01
Hi,

here is a photo of the tail of a Sani-Ju 52.

Regards Peter

Von Alles
14th January 2007, 11:45
Hi,
these Ju 52s registrated D-TABW X Y were enigmas for me for a long time.
Please note that He 59 are civilians registrated in the D-A series (in fact registrated to the International Red Cross in Switzlerland according to the Geneva Convention).
But D-T... is not a civilian registration but a military one.
What was the unit operated them ?
There a lot of pics of them during late Spring & Summer 1940 in France.
Some said they were used by an air sea rescue unit. There is a movie of Hitler visiting units in 1940 with one of these planes in the background.
My opinion is that they were military planes usind a international registration (a SKZ is in fact a D-... registration) for use over "neutral" countries, for instance rapatriation of wounded and/or german PoW in France post-armistice
Have a good day
Von Alles

Seaplanes
14th January 2007, 13:59
In the booklet "46 Jahre danach" Eine Dokumentation von Karl Born, he outlines the history of these three Ju 52's. During the winter 1939/1940, parts of the north coast of Germany froze in. Landing with seaplanes were more or less impossible due to the ice. This was also the case for the He 59's of the Seenotdienst. On a temporary basis, the Seenotdienst were allocated two, later supplemented by one more Ju 52 Sanitätsflugzeuge. The first two, D-TABY and D-TABX, seems to have been taken over towards the end of December 1939, D-TABW was taken over on 31.01.1940. Nearly 109 tons of supplies and 1284 people were airlifted from the mainland to the isolated islands from 9 January 1940 to 22.02.1940. A total of 214 sorties were flown by the aircraft in 24:36 hours.

obdl3945
14th January 2007, 16:34
Peter...

Great thumbnail... well done... :)

Peter Achs
14th January 2007, 16:57
Hi seaplanes,

there is an article in the Junkers Nachrichten 3/40 abaout the „Eisnotdienst“. The article says there was only one Ju 52 in service. And the photo shows a common Luftwaffe Ju 52.:confused:

Btw., D-TABW etc. are former Stkz. TA+BW etc.

Regards
Peter

Seaplanes
14th January 2007, 17:57
I tend to believe Karl Borns information as this is based on his report after the completion of this operation. A faximile of this report is reproduced in his booklet. Bear in mind that Ltn. Karl Born led this operation from start to end. His report is dated 26.02.1940. The three Ju 52s were subordinated to Seenotflugkommando 1 at Norderney.

Parabellum
14th January 2007, 17:58
@ Peter Achs : nice pics! :)
The first one is perfect illustration for these peculiar "Sanitäts Ju-52s".
For the last one, the "common" Ju-52 seems to have a Stkz beginning with 1Z+.. May be was it a complement aircraft for the aerial salvage operations?
@ Everybody : thank you very much for replies which give me precisions on the orerational duty past of those planes. :)
@ Von Alles : where have you seen the "lot of pics of them during late spring & summer 1940 in France " that you evoke?

Best regards, :)

Sergio Luis dos Santos
14th January 2007, 18:09
Hi,

here is a photo of the tail of a Sani-Ju 52.

Regards Peter

Most interesting to me is the small "normal" swastica on the fin. Haven´t noticed it on other photos.
Parabellum, there are some photos available in books but there was also some great shots were sold on eBay Germany long time ago showing those planes.
What I remember from a book is the swastica used on those planes matches the ones from German Red Cross in WW2 meaning a not combatent plane. This kind of swastica for Red Cross is also seen on medals and daggers (in this case with a "broken" tip).

Peter Achs
14th January 2007, 19:15
I found the W-Nr. for one of the Ju 52:
Ju 52, W-Nr. 6660, TA+BX, 22. Apr. 42, San.Flugber.3, near Fürstenwalde, crashed after mid-air collision, 100%

Another loss:
Ju 52, W-Nr. 6661, (TA+BY?), 14. Febr. 43, San.Flugber.4, near Karatschew, Russia, flew into the ground during bad weather, 100%

I also found a photo of a Sani-Ju 52 with reg. D-TMBT, and there are (later?) photos of the D-TABW with the normal „angled“ Swastika.

@ Sergio Luis:
The small swastika is part of the stylized eagle, see the profile.

Regards
Peter

Von Alles
14th January 2007, 19:32
Dear Parabellum,
I have found "a lot of pics" elsewere : there was a contempary picture of D-TABX in a copy of Signal, dated 1940.
Frequently, photos of these machines are on sale on eBay.
Other pictures in "Ju 52 in action", Karl Ries 's DK13, some copies of the french magazine Avions, etc.
Best regards
Von Alles

Sergio Luis dos Santos
14th January 2007, 20:59
Sergio Luis:
The small swastika is part of the stylized eagle, see the profile.

That´s correct Peter, forgot the badge has a swastica as well as it´s big not "very small" as on my memory...:rolleyes:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c267/loigres/Ju52ambulancia01.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c267/loigres/Ju52ambulancia02.jpg

Parabellum
14th January 2007, 22:14
Thank you Von Alles! :)
I've a lot of doc about many planes but apparently not enough about the Ju-52! :)
No Signal or "Ju 52 in action" available on my bookshelves, but I'll put a blink in my DK13!
Cheers,

@ Sergio Luis: have you found the last on E-bay, as pointed at by Von Alles?
Regards,

Parabellum
14th January 2007, 23:05
I had forgotten they were there!...:)
Two pics found in RK13: first one in vol.1 p.166 (D-TABX), second one in vol.4 p.131 (D-TABY).
Who knows about the drawing which was on the left nose side of the fuselage, apparently on a white rectangle?

Von Alles
15th January 2007, 20:29
Hi,
I join a pic of this insigna.
I have found a photo of D-TABX in green camouflage, sold on eBay some monthes ago.
Von Alles

Parabellum
17th January 2007, 01:34
Thanks Von Alles! :)
I don't know this unit emblem... :confused:
Have you any information on the name of the Luftwaffe unit who used it?
Can somebody describe what is shown on the white rectangle and tell us precisions about the colours of the different parts of the drawing?
Cheers,

Von Alles
17th January 2007, 21:36
I have found another Red Cross Ju 52 wiyth a D-[consonant] registration : D-VDZA
And a "sister ship" of D-TABX/Y : D-AOHU, this time with a true civilian registration.

All the best

Von Alles

Parabellum
18th January 2007, 01:25
Hi Von Alles,
I've also found a picture of D-AOHU which looks exactly like D-TABW-X-Y! :)
But nothing about the unit's insignia applied on D-TABY! :(
Black lozenge on white rectangle... but what else? :confused:
Was it the emblem of a "Sanitary Evacuation Unit"? If yes, which one?
Who has any idea on the subject?
Regards,

Von Alles
20th January 2007, 11:04
Look at this link :
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270081395104
It's our old friend D-TABW in green livery !!

Von Alles

Parabellum
20th January 2007, 14:52
Yes, Von Alles! It is! :) Green after white!
But I'm a little bit disappointed as to the unit's insignia...:(
Nothing has come to light, till now... Was für ein Sanitäs einheit?
Cheers,