Bf 109 shot down at Burg, 24th March 1944

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Hi,
Please, could someone help me to identify the Werknummer, Jagdgeschwader and name of pilot shot down while taxying at Burg airfield on 24th March 1944.
The claimants were: W/C Hoare and his Nav. S/L Muir of 604 Squadron, flying a Mosquito on an INTRUDER mission.
I do not know if this action ocurred by night or by daylight.
Glad to all

Adriano Baumgartnr

[David Pausey]

Hi Adriano

I have the following from 605’s ORB:-
24th/25th March 1944.
W/C B.R.O’B.HORE, D.S.O.,D.F.C. and F/O R.C.Muir. Mosquito VI UP/L.
Took of Bradwell Bay 20:50 hrs and landed Woodbridge 02:25 hrs.
“Flower” Patrol to Stendal and destroyed a Me109 at Burg. They came back from near Stendal on one engine and landed safely at Woodbridge.

So the mission was at night and the ORB does not say whether the 109 was in the air or ground. I do not know of any Luftwaffe losses that match this claim although JG's 300,301 and 302 did lose aircraft this night none of which were lost to a Mosquito .

Cheers
David
P.S. Have you got there combat report ? and what is your intrest in 605 ?

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Hi David!
Thanks a lot, it helped me. I indeed verified JG300 losses on BOBO site. There is no loss that matches the claim. Perhaps JG 302, 301. I will verify.
No, I do not have a particular interest in 605 Squadron ( I typed wrongly 604 ), but in Robert Muir victories as a Navigator. I actually got in touch with him and am researching about their claims. Do you have any DATA about that on the 605 ORB´s? Where I can access those famous ORB´s everybody has access? There should be some site to facilitate this kind of research with RAF claims x Luftwaffe losses and vice-versa...
But, I will try to find out JG 301 and JG 302 losses...maybe. Did you got in touch with any 605 Squadron member? Are you also a Mosquito "aficionado"?
Cheers and thanks for the info! We´ll be in touch...

Adriano Baumgartner

[Nick Beale]

NJG 11 is also a possibility if this action took place at night.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

The loss list on the JG 300 site is not exhaustive! Please remember that the GenQu6Abt loss lists for 1944 are missing, an as the loss list shown on the JG 300 site seems to be built on WASt documents, aircraft losses were the personnel involved were not injured, went missing or killed will not appear.

The following losses NOT listed on the JG 300 site were sustained by this fighter unit on the mentioned dates:

24.03.1944:

I./J.G.300 1 aircraft category 4 (Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, observed by enemy)


25.03.1944:

I./J.G.300 2 aircraft category 20 (Destroyed without enemy action on operational flight)

also on this date:
(II./J.G.300 1 aircraft category 4 (Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, observed by enemy). This is probably the loss of the FW 190 from 5. Staffel listed on the J.G.300 page)

It is possible that the 24.03.1944 loss is the one you are looking for, but it is also possible that the incident were not recognized as enemy induced if it happened at night, and one of the cat 20 losses are the one you are looking for.

It should be possible to check the ORB for take-off and landing times so one can estimate if the loss occured before or after midnight, an important distinction in such cases.

Best regards,
Andreas B

[RT]

The III.JG301 due to "luftkampf" lost/damaged a plane no casualties no place noted

remi

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, again guys.

If we are to broaden the number of possible candidates, there are several from the other JG 300+ units on these dates.

24.03.1944

III./J.G.301 two aircraft lost (thus damage equal to or over 55%)
I./J.G.302 three aircraft lost (thus damage equal to or over 55%)
II./J.G.302 one aircraft lost (thus damage equal to or over 55%)

25.03.1944

I./J.G.301 one aircraft damaged (thus damage equal to or below 50%)

Best regards,
Andreas B

[Adriano Baumgartner]

I saw the Fw 190 loss of .5/ JG 300 recorded on the website of Bobo. But, the crew of 604 Squadron identified their victim as a Bf 109, not a Fw 190. Personally I do believe that this aircraft can be the one I am looking for, as we do know that under the heat of action, at low level with all that Flak barking around, and only two or three seconds to aim correctly, it is very hard to judge the aircraft you are attacking, speciall at night! We do have several claims of well known German night-fighters that were misdjudged ( Lancasters for Halifaxes ).
Could you confirm if these losses of JG 301 and 302 were Bf 109 or Fw 190?
And yes, Nick Beale correctly identified NJG 11. We also do have NJGr 10 who operated a mix of machines, some in experimental way...
Glad to all that answered...we will find this clue soon...
Thanks a lot!

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Andreas, unfortunately, I only have a small description of the action by S/L Muir, DFC himself. He did not mentioned the take off time or even the hour of the attack. He only said, as David that their port engine quit some 450 miles away from England and that they had to bring their Mosquito dog-legging to avoid Flak Areas and night-fighters. A hard return indeed...
I not even got the serial of their aircraft...
We can figure out which was...I will look at some files...
Cheers
A. Baumgartner

[Richard Goyat]

I second Andreas about its analysis of the JG 300 losses. The 109 mentioned as destroyed in aerial combat on 24 March 1944 may well have been lost during the 24/25 March night. Unfortunately, the location of this loss is not known.

As for the two I./JG 300 aircraft lost on 25 March 1944, I believe that the operational flight they were on occurred during the same 24/25 March night, and that both were destroyed during landing accidents which took place at Oranienburg and Jüterbog respectively. But once again I agree with Andreas when he writes that the real cause of these losses wasn't necessarily rightly recorded.

Adriano, I don't think the Fw 190 of II./JG 300 was the aircraft you are looking for, firstly because it was lost near Krefeld (which is quite a distance from Burg) and secondly because its pilot, Lt. Karl Schick, told us how he collided with a four-engine bomber that night. Schick's story is detailed in our book about JG 300 on pages 144-145 of the French version (ed. Larivière) or page 154 of the American version (Eagle Editions).

Regards
Richard Goyat

[Erich]

Adriano :

we must also rule out NJG 11 as the Fw 190/Bf 109G unit was not in existance until August of 44 with I. gruppe under F.K. Müller. II gruppe on 26 November 44 from the 10.(N)/JG 300 forming the backing for the 5/6th staffels.

E ~

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, guys.

In my opinion we should look for a loss recorded for 24th March. Seems that the guys in the Mossie spent 3 hrs 10 minutes in the air before midnight and 2 hrs 5 minutes in the air after midnight.

On the homeward leg the cruising speed would probably be reduced due to the fact they were flying on one engine.

Anyone plotted the Bradwell Bay - Stendal -Woodbridge route and calculated the times?

I guess Bradwell Bay was close to Bradwell-on-Sea east of London, and Woodbridge was a bit east of Ipswich?



Best regards,
Andreas B

[David Pausey]

Hi ALL

I have found W/C Hoares combat report with my other 23 Sqn Papers heres a shortened version:-

Mosquito VI UP-L took off from Bradwell Bay at 20:40 hrs to patrol STEND and BURG A/F's in support of Bomber Command's raid on BERIN. The Dutch coasr was crossed at ALKMAAR at 21:35 hrs. STENADL was reached at 23:05 hrs. After flying round this A/F it was thought that presence of the Intruder was known and that consequently they were endeavouring to land at BURG so course was set fot this A/F at 23:26. BURG was reached at 23:32, two e/a were seen to land but were not attacked, a third e/a was seen to land at 23:39 with its D.R.L. on and taxied in a N.W. dirction across the A/F still with its D.R.L. on, this was attacked from the stern quarter. Fire was opened from 1800 feet, range 800 yds. closing to 400 feet heoght, 100 yds range with one long burst of cannon and M.G. Many strikes were seen over e/a and an explosion in centre of the fuselage occurred which threw debris in all directions. In the flash of the explosion F/O Muir recognised the e/a as a Me109. Because of the shortage of fuel course was set straight back to STENDEL other e/a were seen with nav lights on in this area. Course was set fot home at 23:47 and wile passing SALZWEDEL at 23:52 the port motor failed and airscrew was feathered. The remaining 420 miles were flown on one motor, crossing out 5 miles S. of EGMOND at 01:27 and landing at Woodbridge at 02:25 hrs.

I do not know if this helps with finding out which unit the "Me109" came from but I would be very intersted we can.

Regards

David

[David Pausey]

See new post

[Adriano Baumgartner]

David
Thanks a lot for the interesting information about the mission. I had only the part of F/L Muir.
As I saw on several other threads here, perhaps the Bf 109 was just damaged and, in this case, not listed on the German list of casualties...( let me say I am just guessing or supposing ).
Are you also interested in the DH Mosquito activities?
Well, let´s hope we will find out the name of the pilot, serial number, Squadron involved.
I will check some books about the Jagdwaffe to see if I find something else.
Thank you again for your kindness

A. Baumgartner