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tcolvin
30th June 2007, 20:34
I am interested in the circumstances surrounding the destruction of two 9 Squadron Wellington bombers on September 4, 1939.
One was shot down by Flak off Brunsbuettel, and the other destroyed by Sergeant Alfried Held in a Bf-109 of II/JG77 operating out of Fliegerhorst Nordholz.
Can anyone please help me with information about either or both of these events which surely constitute the first Luftwaffe victories in WWII.

Franek Grabowski
30th June 2007, 20:51
Can anyone please help me with information about either or both of these events which surely constitute the first Luftwaffe victories in WWII.
Pardon?

tcolvin
30th June 2007, 23:46
The claim is that the Wellington shot down off Brunsbuettel on September 4, 1939 was the first Luftwaffe victory over the RAF in WWII.
Is this not true, Franek?
Tony

dora9forever
1st July 2007, 00:08
yes alfred held was the guy. hans trobitch was too claimed the very first by pilots in unit pilot schremacker.has said. why held" in german means hero.
he had top honors.so held was it.
Gary

Franek Grabowski
1st July 2007, 01:29
Tony, your sentence states "the first Luftwaffe victories in WWII" which is not exactly "the first Luftwaffe victory over the RAF in WWII". I have found that war on the east is often ignored, hence my reaction. No pun intended.

tcolvin
1st July 2007, 12:10
Franek; I am not one ever to forget Poland.
But I am still looking for a source of information about the first action between the LW and the RAF. Surely this subject has been covered in detail by someone in a book or article.
10 Blenheims attacked the Schillig Roads off Wilhelmshaven on September 4. The Admiral Scheer's KTB says the alarm went off at 1752 hours as two bombs fell on the ship from what the sailors identified to be He-111. Scheer claims it shot down 3 Blenheims and also a Bf109, which presumably was flying a standing patrol from Jever and was the first LW casualty in the West. Is this true and does anyone know who the pilot and the unit was? 5 of the 10 attacking Blenheims were shot down, but not by the LW but by the Kriegsmarine and 2 Marineartillerieabteilung, later 2 Marineflakbrigade.
Meanwhile another 5 Blenheims and 12 Hampdens from 49 and 83 Squadrons at Scampton (two of which were piloted by Guy Gibson and Leonard Snaith) got lost over Heligoland and returned to base. The Hampden sorties are not mentioned in Middlebrook's Bomber Command War Diaries.
14 Wellingtons (6 from 9 Squadron at Honington and 8 from 149 Squadron at Mildenhall) were sent to Brunsbuettel to attack shipping in the entrance to the Kiel Canal. One bombed Esbjerg in Denmark. 2 were lost, one to Flak and one to Alfred Held operating out of Nordholz.
I wonder if anyone can throw light on how and where these two Wellingtons came down in what seems to have constituted the first LW victory over the RAF?

Sylvester Stadler
1st July 2007, 19:03
The unit which intercepted the British bombers was II./JG 77 which reported three kills of which two were confirmed as follows:
Lt. Metz claimed a Blenheim NE of Wilhelmshaven but he had no witnesses, thus it was awarded to the flak units.
Fw. Held claimed a Wellington at 1815 over Brunsbüttelkoog for his first victory ten minutes before Fw. Troitzsch claimed a Wellington for his first kill, thus making Held the victor over the first British aircraft in air combat during WW 2.

No Bf 109s were lost that day nor were any damaged in combat. The aircraft of Lt. Falke 2./ZG 26 was lost on take-off due to engine failure. I believe that this unit never made contact with the British bombers. The British claimed one German aircraft shot down, although none was lost to the bombers.

Fairlop
1st July 2007, 19:24
Tony,

The book Fledgling Eagles describes that day and losses in details.

Regards,
Michal

tcolvin
1st July 2007, 20:30
Thank you everybody. All my questions are answered. The information that no Bf109 was lost that day is surprising, but you are the experts.
Tony

rob van den nieuwendijk
1st July 2007, 21:03
Hello all,

2./ZG 76 lost a Me 109D-1 on 4 Sep 39 - Leutnant Hans Fake kia. Cause: Motorschaden. Crashed near Mellum, north of Wilhelmshaven. (Source: Prien et all, JFV, Teil 2, page 557)

Best wishes
Rob

Brian
1st July 2007, 23:03
Hi Rob & Tony & others

Is the conclusion that the Sheer shot down the Bf109D of 2/ZG76 - therefore a friendly fire incident?

Cheers
Brian

RodM
2nd July 2007, 00:37
Tony, your sentence states "the first Luftwaffe victories in WWII" which is not exactly "the first Luftwaffe victory over the RAF in WWII". I have found that war on the east is often ignored, hence my reaction. No pun intended.


...but read the topic title! I have found that the topic title and original question are often ignored on this forum, hence my reaction.

Cheers

Rod

tcolvin
2nd July 2007, 12:40
I spoke too soon.
Yes, Brian. Bringing down the Bf109 was regarded by Scheer as a friendly fire incident.
Was it piloted, by the way, by Lt Falke (Sylvester) or Lt Fake (Rob)?
And was 2/ZG26 operating a) out of Jever and b) on a standing patrol? It is my assumption that there was no radar detection or control in those early days.
Scheer's KTB records shooting down three German aircraft in four days;
1) Sept 4, this Bf109 shot down and the pilot killed while the Flak barrage was shooting at the Blenheims. Mellum was a couple of Kms north east of the Scheer. This must have been Falke/Fake
2) Sept 5, a Ju52 was shot down
3) Sept 7 another Ju52 destroyed.
On Sept 5 the KTB of Marinestation der Nordsee in Wilhelmshaven included this entry (my translation).
Cooperation between Fighter aircraft and ship-mounted Flak (Schiffsflak).
Because of the shooting down by Scheer of one of our fighter aircraft, the question was examined of how to increase the safety of our own aircraft with regard to our artillery. Recognition signals are insufficient. (E-S.-Sterne unzureichend.) The fighter pilots state that recognition signals are ignored. For the time being the following regulation has been agreed with Fighter Command (Fuehrer der Jagdgruppe): "No fighter aircraft will fly over the Jade and the town of Wilhelmshaven". Additional regulations (covering better recognition signs such as the placing of lights, painted signs and definition of flightpaths and prohibited zones) will be worked out with Gruppe West". (source: Die Luftverteidigung im Abschnitt Wilhelmshaven 1939-1945 by Friederich August Greve; ISBN 3-9806885-0-X).

tcolvin
2nd July 2007, 13:28
To answer my own question; http://www.ww2.dk/misc/ob1939.htm states that 2/ZG26 operated out of Werl. But that is too far away in North Rhine Westpahlia. So it must have been Varel.

christian
2nd July 2007, 16:30
Hi

The 2./ZG 26 came from Varel. Leutnant Hans Falke was killed in a crash at Mellum Plate in a combat with a Blenheim. Unteroffizier Richard Woick shot down a Blenheim in the same area.

Greetings Christian

tcolvin
2nd July 2007, 18:28
Thank you Christian.

But Unteroffizier Richard Woick is a new name.
And if confirmed then Woick's destruction of a Blenheim on September 4, 1939 becomes the first Luftwaffe victory over the RAF, and that distinction does not belong to Feldwebel Alfred Held of II./JG77 in a Bf109 operating out of Nordholz who shot down a Wellington.
Can you please give me information about Woick; a) what was his unit b) what type of aircraft was he flying c) where was he stationed and d) was this a confirmed claim?

Tony

christian
2nd July 2007, 21:34
Hi Tony

Uffz. Woick was with his 2.Stafel/ZG 26 (a.) in Varel (c.). He fly a Me Bf 109 D-1 (b.) red 15+. He became the EKII and on the fin of his plane was a bar for his first victory. I have some photos from Uffz. Woick in Varel and a good photo with a sleepy Lt. Falke.

Greetings Christian

tcolvin
2nd July 2007, 22:58
Christian, hi.

I am glad you have these pictures.
But Feldwebel Alfred Held of II./JG77 from Nordholz remains the first Luftwaffe pilot to shoot down an RAF aircraft.
Maybe Lt Falcke was the first Luftwaffe pilot to be shot down by the RAF, but history records that he was shot down by the Scheer's Flak.

All the best to you, and thanks again to everyone for their help. Tony

Jochen Prien
3rd July 2007, 14:07
Gentlemen,

from your posts it becomes obvious, that the information I have had so far relating to the loss of Lt. Falke's Bf 109 on September 4th, 1939, was incomplete or rather incorrect with respect to the cause of the crash. The loss return that the information in JFV 2, p. 557 was based upon, did say nothing about "friendly fire".

In order to substantiate a correction of the information presented in JFV 2, I would kindly request you to provide me - off board - with copies of the KTB entry of the "Admiral Scheer " where the shooting down of a Bf 109 is mentioned and of other documents relevant to this loss. The KTB of the Navy High Command - KTB der SKL, Teil A - mentiones only the shooting down of a Ju 52 on September 5th, causing seven dead, whereas there is no hint at the incident of the day before.

Thank you in advance and

kind regards

Jochen Prien

Franek Grabowski
3rd July 2007, 15:09
Sorry Tony, did not notice the title.
I am wondering if reported friendly fire Me 109 loss could be another aircraft rather than Falke's one. Indeed, only one Ju 52 is listed by GQ6 as shot down by Scheer and perhaps only incidents involving human losses were included?

tcolvin
3rd July 2007, 16:08
Hi Franek. There is nothing to be sorry about. And, by the way, as you will know Wilhelmshaven was eventually liberated by the Polish armoured brigade.

I am asking a contact in Wilhelmshaven to send a copy of Scheer's KTB to Jochen so he can have documentary proof of the friendly fire event.

To answer your question, I made a mistake about the second Ju52. I did not read the entry in Greve properly. What he wrote (my translation) was:
"Two days later the regulation (made September 5 that Wilhelmshaven and the Jade were prohibited to aircraft) was tested. At 0755hrs the Fliegeralarm sounded on the Scheer. The ship opened fire on an approaching aircraft at a distance of 4,000 metres. The plane drew off at the first salvo and fired the recognition signal. It turned out to be a Ju52. After cease-fire and an exchange of messages it was reported that the aircraft suffered no damage". I apologise for my earlier mistake.

Greve's source is the KTBs of the Scheer and Marinestation der Nordsee. In case you and others might be interested and can understand German, this is what Greve wrote about what we must assume to have been Lt Falcke's death.
"Im Laufe des anschliessenden Gefechtes wurden die drei angreiffenden Maschinen (obviously the Blenheims) von der Bordflak der Schiffe abgeschossen. Hierbei geriet ein deutsches Jagdflugzeug vom Typ Me 109 in das Abwehrfeuer der Schiffe und ging durch Abschuss verloren. Der Pilot konnte nur noch tot geborgen werden".

Tony

christian
3rd July 2007, 17:14
Hi

The Ju 52 D-AGZI war shot down down by own Flak by Schilling. The Ju was on the way from Kiel to Jever.

Christian

Franek Grabowski
3rd July 2007, 18:12
Tony, apart of this was a tank division, it is correct. My uncle was there, I have his 'Solingen' hunting clasp-knife, perhaps a Wilhelmshaven trophy?

tcolvin
3rd July 2007, 19:28
Franek. Yes, it could be a Wilhelmshaven trophy.
But do you know if your uncle or any other Polish armoured veteran had photographs of Wilhelmshaven? I am writing an article on Wilhelmshaven in 'Gestern und Heute - Then and Now' format and would be very interested inseeing them.
Tony

Brian
3rd July 2007, 19:55
Hi Tony & others

Fascinating and most interesting - you may be aware that I am working on a friendly fire project-cum-book. These incidents were previously unknown to me. Any chance you could translate the report of the shooting down of the Ju52 on 5 September, please?


Cheers
Brian

tcolvin
3rd July 2007, 23:38
Of course, Brian.

This is the bit from Greve's book previously referred to;
"On September 5 the Panzerschiff (usually translated as Pocket Battleship) Admiral Scheer in operation with torpedo boats of 6 T.Fl (Torpedobootsflottille) shot down a Ju52. This transport aircraft of the Luftdienst (note Christian gave it the civil registration D-AGZI) was identified in error as an enemy attacker (Angreifer). The wreck was salvaged by the Naval Shipyard (Kriegsmarinewerft Wilhelmshaven) on the orders of the station commander (Stationskommando). On the matter of the shooting down of two of their own aircraft, the following instruction was noted in the War Diary (KTB) of the North Sea Naval Station (Marinestation der Nordsee) on September 5, 1939". You can find a translation of the next bit in a previous posting of mine on this thread.

You might also be interested in this piece of analysis or comment by Greve;
"All the battles were marked by significant shortcomings in the sharing of information. Notification of fighter sorties and aircraft movements came too late to be used by the Naval Flak Command. There was no direct connection between the Flak on board ships lying in harbour and in the Schillig Roads, the Flak Gruppenkommando in Fort Schaar, and the Luftwaffe. So long as there were no buoys in Wilhelmshaven and the Schillig Roads with telex and telephone connections, then some method of emergency connection was vital. On September 9, 1939 ultra short wave (Ultrakurzwelle) stations were set up in Schillig and at the Third Entrance in Wilhelmshaven".

I will post a translation of the KTB when and if I get it, and I hope this has been of use to you. Good luck with the book.

Tony

Brian
4th July 2007, 01:26
Hi Tony

Extremely grateful. Your name has been duly recorded in the Acknowledgements section of my book (assuming it comes to fruition!).

Any relation to Derrick Colvin DFC, ex-249 Squadron?

Cheers
Brian

Franek Grabowski
4th July 2007, 03:33
Franek. Yes, it could be a Wilhelmshaven trophy.
But do you know if your uncle or any other Polish armoured veteran had photographs of Wilhelmshaven? I am writing an article on Wilhelmshaven in 'Gestern und Heute - Then and Now' format and would be very interested inseeing them.
Tony
Tony, I have all photos of my late uncle but neither of them I can identify as Wilhelmshaven. Unfortunatelly, there is very little of in action photos, most of them being in Britain or in BFO (or what it was called). Perhaps Voy Tech has some, but otherwise you can ask for them in Polish Institute and Sikorski's Museum. In their vast holdings they should have plenty of them, but being an aviation buff I cannot tell anything more.

tcolvin
4th July 2007, 12:24
Franek; thanks for the source reference for photographs.
Brian; you're welcome, and no, I'm not a relation.

Tony

Brian
4th July 2007, 22:14
Hi guys

Can anyone tell me more about D-AGZI the Ju52 shot down by Scheer? Was it a Lufthansa machine? Who were the casualties?

Cheers
Brian

Darius
30th March 2011, 22:39
Hello Brian,

I hope you´re still waiting for some information about this Ju-52...

We (http://forum-marinearchiv.de/index.php) have:
1. Am 05.09.1939 schießt das Panzerschiff ADMIRAL SCHEER auf Schilling-Reede eine Ju 52 T ab (Totalverlust), wobei die Insassen (3 Mann Zivilbesatzung, 1 Offz., 1 Korpsgerichtsrat und 1 Zivilangestellter) zu Tode kommen.
Quelle: Zusammenstellung Ic Lw. F.Stb.

2.
12(?, ist bei mir unleserlich...).00 Uhr "Scheer" schießt auf Schilling Reede bei unsichtigem Wetter eine ihn anfliegende Ju. 52 ab (7 Tote, darunter Hptm. Klünder).
Quelle: KTB Skl for 05.09.1939

Greetings

Darius

Larry Hickey
31st March 2011, 10:32
Hello,

Does anyone know if photos exist of either of these crashed Wellingtons from this this action? I'm sure a big deal was made of this in the contemporary German press.

Regards,

Darius
2nd April 2011, 18:44
1) Sept 4, this Bf109 shot down and the pilot killed while the Flak barrage was shooting at the Blenheims. Mellum was a couple of Kms north east of the Scheer. This must have been Falke/Fake



Piening, Holger: Nordseeküste im Krieg 1939-1942, S. 64, zitiert aus dem KTB Admiral Scheer für den 04.09.1939:


"Ein eigener Jäger geriet durch falsches Verhalten in das starke Abwehfeuer des Schiffes, Abstoppen erfolglos. Flugzeug wurde abgeschossen. Leiche des Flugzeugführers (Lt. Falke) geborgen."


Greetings

Darius

Bf 110
6th September 2016, 11:20
Hi guys

Can anyone tell me more about D-AGZI the Ju52 shot down by Scheer? Was it a Lufthansa machine? Who were the casualties?

Cheers
Brian

Hello Brian,

found that thread while looking for the Scheer accident.

There are some more informations regarding a/c and crew. This Ju 52 had code WL-AGZG and WNr. 1304. The crew consisted of FF Kutschbach; Bf Erwin Preuss; Bw Baasch; Passagiere (passengers): Hptm. Günther Klünder,
Meterologe Dr. Erhard K. A. Böhm, Kriegsgerichtsrat Dr. Brinkmann, Ofw. Brammer, St.Fkmt. Willi Becker, zivil Angestellter (clerk) Rohde.

Source: http://luftwaffe-zur-see.de/Seeluft/Verlustlisten/Jahr1939.htm

Regards
Gunnar - Bf 110 -

VtwinVince
6th September 2016, 22:42
No German city was ever 'liberated' by a Polish, or indeed any Allied unit in WW2, they were captured.