Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi Marc-Andre

No offense taken, just trying to help clarify the Erla fuselage situation.

Very glad you started this thread...it's starting to show light at the end of the tunnel.

Best Regards,

D.B.

Sorry for the pun, couldn't restrain myself.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Yup D-B.,

Good to have some pun after such a high flight inquiry. I just love it :-))

Roland, Matthias, Carl,

Any new information about the location of DB 605/AS or D production plants? Any thoughts about the engine supply lines between January and April 1945? There must be a rational explanation for this line of engineless Flossenbürg Bf 109 K-4's... and those Bodenwöhr engineless airframes at Wertheim, of course.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi Marc,

no idea as yet. The engine supply chain is completely fadded out in all publications I own. Maybe they were delivered by Daimler directly, that's why Bodenwöhr and Flossenbürg only brought the fuslages into the assembly.
I bought the already on LEMB mentioned book of Timo Bullemer "Das Kriegsende in Cham: Ereignisse und Entwicklungen - November 1944 bis Mai 1945". The book is pretty intresting, but unfortunately contains not to much new info on the Michelsdorf airfield. It says, that the G.I.s found 50 fighter aircrafts when taking that base in Michelsdorf. Now I try to find out if they would fit to our pictures. The author writes that there exists a collection on the Michelsdorf airfield at Cham town administration. That would be intresting to see. There is also a nice picture of damaged a FW 190 lying in a meadow. In the beackground a Bf 109 in same bad conditions is visible. Unfortunately the picture is very low sized.

regards

Matthias

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Matthias, did you see the photo I´ve posted in adifferent thread? Do you have any additional information about the source of this pic?

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=18913

Concerning the the engines I´m rather convinced the fuselages left Flossenbürg as complete units, i.e. with the DB 605s attached. All available photos prove this assumption. Without the engine, its bearers, the wiring and other necessary accessoires the firewall between engine compartment and cockpit looks rather "clean" and "empty" on all photos showing this assembly status. The Wertheim fuselages feature all those parts with loose wiring ends but without the engine. Even the canted struts supporting the engine bearer - which make only sense in the very moment when the DB gets fitted - are already attached.

http://www.koelzsch-restauration.de/.../Me-109_04.jpg

For unknown reasons the engines were removed somewhere between Flossenbürg and Wertheim IMHO.

Concerning the producers of the Daimler-Benz engines I have to pass this question to the experts. I only can say that just as the tail units the engine covers were built and painted at different locations. That´s why the camo areas and grey values don´t fit together on most Flossenbürg fuselages.

Regards

Fran

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Servus Matthias und Roland!

Thanks again for both your inputs. Any chance for you to pay a visit to the Cham municipal administration in the near future? Sure it would be great to see all this primary documentation. One wonders how many more Bf 109 K-4 pics did survive May 1945... 50 of them found there in 1945? Good to know. I surmize they all had their engines...

Roland, coming back to this engine issue, I don't doubt the Flossenbürg machines had theirs: the pics published by Poruba and Mol 2000 that you so kindly uploaded are self-explaining. But how is it then possible to explain what US photos do show: factory-fresh engineless Bf 109 K-4's fuselages both with Bodenwöhr and Flossenbürg camouflage patterns? Are there any clues to support your theory and observations (engine fitted fuselages as documented in Flossebürg and then dismantled at Wertheim, post #44) against mine (out-of DB 605/AS or D Waldwerke sending their finished fuselages to other workshops still supplied by Daimler-Benz?, post #40)?

Here again my two cents based upon the available pictures analysis:

A. Wertheim (Noro 2009, p. 101, *136, #post 11; Poruba and Mol 2000, p. 40, added here): Both pictures documenting the state of assembly ahead of the firewall bulkhead reveal the same situation: a substantial amount of wiring and boxes are affixed on the bulkhead's lower portion + lower engine bearers only are bolted to the firewall; the upper engine bearers are missing. This fits perfectly with the picture showing the 6+ DB 605/AS or D on their trolleys published by Carl Hildebrandt (Hildebrandt 1988, p.9, post #23): the foremost engine does show the left upper engine bearer bolted on it.

B. Unknown location (Noro 2009, p. 103, #138, post 11; post #27 by Carl): the photo posted by Carl does show the same prefitting situation. A substantial amount of wires and boxes are already fixed on the lower firewall bulkhead, as are only the lower engine bearers. Unfortunately, no DB 605 D on trolleys to confort the Wertheim clue.

What can we deduce? In both locations, the Bf 109 K-4 airframes do show the same level of fitting out: wires and boxes are already substantially fixed on the bulkhead's lower part; lower engine bearers only fixed. Evidence so far is thin, but on this basis, there is no indication that those airframes had their engines fitted at Bodenwöhr and then removed at Wertheim prior their dispersal in the woods. In the contrary, the fact that both the engines on trolleys and the wing sets were all located either next to or at the entrance of the Schlossberg tunnel does speak for sub-assemblies arriving there by railroad, being offloaded and readied in the tunnel workshop before being transported to the uphill forrested areas for mating on the waiting fuselages. Let's also remember the latter were dispersed in the woods surrounding Wertheim's airfield where the fly-ins and handing over tasks were carried out.

The depicted airframes complete with tailplanes and engines with their cowlings piled up at Flossenbürg inn May 1945 are one reality. That not all Flossenbürg Waldwerke could work along the same line is documented by Hideki Noro's #pic 138 and Carls post #27. The probability is thus high that, during the last two - three monthes, engine supply issues forced some Waldwerke to send their engineless fuselages to still engine supplied assembly shops like Wertheim.

Facit: a variety of makeshift production/assembly situations can be expected to have arisen in the crumbling Third Reich during the last final monthes or weeks as compared to the production plans implemented between October and December 1944...

Cheers
Marc

PS:
- I do hope to see on day pictures of airframes found at Bodenwöhr (so far, no currently available photos of stockpiled, already motorized fuselages, waiting for final assembly there...).
- No matter how hard I tried to swap keywords for a Google search, I did not find ANY information about Daimler-Benz aero production plants, especially for the DB 605/AS or D. Beyond description and power output, I drew a complete blank. Any ideas where to find the required documentation?

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi Marc and Roland

all that wiring, connectors and holders are mounting parts for the engine and do not belong to the engine directly but to the fuslage subassembly. Only the engines without attached parts were delivered by DB. I think you could be right with your theory, that the airframes were brought into that state that just the engine would have been needed and then delivered to an alternative assembly line like Wertheim. For me as well, it doesn't make to much sense that they brokeup the hole supplier chain. I think all the smaller parts were delivered to and installed within the closer Mtt. Regensburg network. Maybe the engine supply by rail took to long to the end of the war. So they looked out for a place closer to Daimler Benz in Baden-Württemberg. And Wertheim would be directly in the middle. Provided that DB still was producing in the Stuttgart area.
But thats just speculation, anyhow it sounds presumably to me.

I tried to google with "Daimler Benz U-Verlagerung"
and found the following site:
http://www.kz-denk-neckarelz.de/goldfisch/goldfisch.htm

DB was planning to move their production north into a underground facility near Neckarelz (see also Doggerwerk near Happurg for BMW engine production). That makes the distance to Wertheim even smaller (65km). I think that could explain a lot.


I hope I'll find some time to visit Cham municipal administration. It's not yet in my calendar, but on top of my to-do-list ;)

Let me know what you think on that Neckarelz thing. New place new luck?

ps: Over a period the DB605s where attached in Bodenwöhr as well. I found some parts like fasteners which were directly fixed to the engine.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi again,

A short correction:
former production of DB was in Genshagen near Berlin and Mannheim:
http://www.luftarchiv.de/index.htm?/motoren/benz.htm

the underground production site "Goldfisch" was already producing and not only in the state of construction:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decknam..._Geheimobjekte
http://www.explorate.de/Forum/unteri...goldfisch.html

I'm looking forward to your answers.

Greez

Matthias

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hallo Matthias,

Wow, great, simply great! I wasn't aware of this huge "Goldfisch" DB underground production plant at Neckarelz! And to know it was just 65 km away from Wertheim... Talk about piecing back some basic evidences, Congrats, Matthias!

There I found more precise informations:

http://www.kz-denk-neckarelz.de/gold...ldfischbro.pdf

Daimler-Benz Director Müller decided on 7 March 1944 to relocalize the Genshagen plant to the Gypsum mine of Neckarelz after visiting this place. The plan was to have the 50'000 square meters underground factory up and running within 7 weeks. The first 500 deportees to be used as forced labour were brought from Dachau by the SS around mid March; during late spring and early summer, an estimated 5'000 deportees toiled on a horrendous schedules in day and nightshifts to finish "Goldfisch" and "Brasse" underground factories. By 26 June 1944, the first 21 out of the 2'000 factory machines from Genshagen effectively arrived, together with the skilled workers, to Neckarelz; by the end of August, the first prodcution step was installed and production started at once; It was interrupted in septmeber by the collapse of part of the cavern's vault, with heavy loss of lief.

Finally, the first DB 605's were delivered to Mtt at the beginning of October. The planned-for monthly output of 500 new engines and 350 more repaired engines was never achieved though, even with the employment of 7'000 workers, mainly foreigners, on a double shift schedule, with about 3'000 deportees employed under atrocious conditions for developping the infrastrucures and suffering accordingly terrible loss of life rates. "Goldfisch" was also used to relocate the Slovak Rochen /Dubnica Daimler-Benz factory, and plans were drawn to relocate the Sindelfingen factory as well, but the latter move was never carried out. Thus Daimler-Benz managed to keep most of its production tool out of harm's way from incessant Allied raids. Production ceased by the end of March and this huge facility was overrun by the US Army on 2 April 1945, the very day T/5 Robert F Stubenrauch took his pictures of the Fulmann GbmH Wertheim assembly place.

For nowaday pictures:
http://www.explorate.de/militaria/goldfisch.htm

For more informations on Neckarelz and Daimler-Benz:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/KZ_Neckarelz



Between your infos, the ones of Carl and Roland, all elements of this thread do find their place within the following probable time frame:

- Summer 1944: Wertheim' Flumann GmbH becomes a Messerschmitt repair facility carrying repair work in their Schlossberg tunnel workshop. Acceptance flights are carried out (Carl, post #38).

- From October 1944 onwards: the "Goldfisch" Daimler-Benz underground facility in Neckarelz, 65 kilometers away from Wertheim, starts to turn out new and repaired DB 605/AS or D (Matthias, post #46-7)

- End of January 1945: due to operational priorities, acceptance flights activities in the Amberg-Schafhof-Vilseck area are shut down (Roland, post #39).

- From February 1945 onwards, part of the Bodenwöhr airframes production is sent to Wertheim for engine and wings outfitting, final assembly, test and acceptance flights.

Now remains to know:

- Why only Bodenwöhr "outsourced" part of it's Bf 109K-4 fuselages production to Wertheim, and not Flossenbürg.

- To where was sent the engineless part of the Flossenbürg airframes production, "outsourced" for engine and wing outfitting, test and acceptance flights?
Let's hope that geographically more revealing or better captioned pictures of those engineless Flossenbürg camouflage patterned fuselages lined up on a "location unknown" Holzrückerweg will show up!

So long for tonight, and thanks to all for bringing this complex chain of events back together!

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Marc,

please let me add a few thoughts to your great scenario on Wertheim.

Quote:
“Summer 1944: Wertheim' Flumann GmbH becomes a Messerschmitt repair facility carrying repair work in their Schlossberg tunnel workshop. Acceptance flights are carried out”

Flugzeugwerke Mannheim “Flumann” was doing repairs on Bf 109s at least since 1942. Flumann always was an independent plant with its own leadership, workers, infrastructure and budget. It never was a subcontractor of Messerschmitt. I have acceptance-flights of repaired a/c from 1942 up to March 1944 at Mannheim and from Juli 1944 from Wertheim.

Quote:
“End of January 1945: due to operational priorities, acceptance flights activities in the Amberg-Schafhof-Vilseck area are shut down”

We can verify a lot of acceptence-flights at Vilseck, Amberg and Cham up the the end of March and even early April 1945 what is very near to the absolute cessation of Bf 109 production itself. As for Amberg-Schafhof: Sharing an airfield with an operational flying unit was not unusual. Just remember München-Riem, Neuburg/Donau, Schwerin, Leipzig-Mockau a.s.o).
BTW: IV./SG 151 was not an operational flying unit, but a mere advanced training group and stopping activities of A/B 43 and A/B 121 has no conection to Messerschmitt, but was part of the general reduction of training due to fuel-shortages.


Quote:
“From February 1945 onwards, part of the Bodenwöhr airframes production is sent to Wertheim for engine and wings outfitting, final assembly, test and acceptance flights”..

This points towards a general shift of final-assembly to Wertheim. Actually it was a small-scale and unique stopgap measure. Hauptausschuss Flugzeugbau filed a report on the situation on a/c-deliveries on 14. February 1945 and said:
“Zur Entlastung vom Mtt.R wurden den Reparaturwerken Flumann Wertheim und Wels im Januar für je 30 Flugzeuge die Großbauteile übergeben. Eine Ausbrigung von diesen aufgerüsteten Flugzeugen erfolgte bis 10.2.45 nicht“
(rough translation: to relieve Messerschmitt-Regensburg in January 1945 major subassemblies for 30 a/c each were handed over to repairworks Flumann at Wertheim and Wels”. None of these rigged-up a/c was delivered up to 10. February 1945”

The term “Großbauteile” regularily is connected to larger prefabricated parts of an a/c, for example the fully equipped fuselage including the cockpit, the complete wings, the engine with all necessary equipment and with its cowlings attached (“Triebwerk”). This explains, why the K-4s at Wertheim were without engines. Flumanns task was to fit “ready to use” Triebwerke and wings to the fuselage, to built in weapons and radio and to do the regular works on Einflug and Abnahme. Also “aufgerüstet” points towards some “putting together” of parts, not real production of any kind.


Another thing:

Looking at the foto of the tunnel-entrance, I consider, that the tunnel itself was quite narrow. The tunnels at Tisnov or at Gevelsberg were much broader. Installing machines and tools for wing-repair perhaps was possible, but not for fuselages and certainly not for wings and fuselages at the same time. I think, we have to look for other facilities around the Schlossbergtunnel, perhaps some wooden buildings in the forrest or some of the hangars of the Wertheim Fliegerhorst.

HTH

Carl

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hello,
At least, Carl, Marc-André last post (#48) has the advantage to make the point of the situation, and yours to point there is a little bit more to dig further in these "fouilles curieuses"! Sorry pals it's a french archeologist joke (I don't know in Swizerland), cannot translate... except "strange diggings" but it's not a joke anymore.
Anyway, do you know, friends, any picture showing (belly landed for example) a BF109K-4 in full/complete assembled condition wearing this famous snake band?
Regards,
Franck.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Seems Ouidjat, learn french with a girl, seems to me more an erotic expression..

remi

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Dear Carl,

Thanks for your thorough and methodical analysis of my latest guesswork, I really appreciate it.

It is most interesting to fully know the meaning of "Flumann GmbH", also precising the start of acceptation flights in Wertheim.

-Also good to know that the Vilseck-Amberg-Schafhof flight acceptances were upkept that long; thanks for enlighting us all about Roland's question and hypothesis.

- As for my statement for the shifting of final assembly from Bodenwöhr to Wertheim, I always meant "partial shifting", ofc not general shifting. Thanks for your precision about the small size of this delocalization and confirming engineless fuselages, wing sets and engines with cowlings, like the ones documented near the Schlossberg tunnel, do fully illustrate the term of "Grossbauteile". I still remain with my question about easier engine availability in Wertheim then in Bodenwöhr for the time frame March - April 1945 as the root-cause for this Mtt outsourcing.

As for your last point, we can but concur, see my post #45); no chance to mate wings and fuselages within this narrow one-track tunnel, hence the fuselages photographed in the surrounding woods on 2 April 1945:

Quote (post #45)
"What can we deduce? In both locations, the Bf 109 K-4 airframes do show the same level of fitting out: wires and boxes are already substantially fixed on the bulkhead's lower part; lower engine bearers only fixed. Evidence so far is thin, but on this basis, there is no indication that those airframes had their engines fitted at Bodenwöhr and then removed at Wertheim prior their dispersal in the woods. In the contrary, the fact that both the engines on trolleys and the wing sets were all located either next to or at the entrance of the Schlossberg tunnel does speak for sub-assemblies arriving there by railroad, being offloaded and readied in the tunnel workshop before being transported to the uphill forrested areas for mating on the waiting fuselages. Let's also remember the latter were dispersed in the woods surrounding Wertheim's airfield where the fly-ins and handing over tasks were carried out. "

Thanks again for your much valued input

Cheers
Marc

.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Dear Ouidjat,

I always highly appreciate the "rabid balls" of Professeur Choron ;-)))

More seriously, checking out the by far the best current reference book on the Bf 109 K (Poruba and Mol 2000, JaPo) I did find three machines which likely sport thise "snake" Bodenwöhr patterns (look at my post #9):

Quote:

"One last point to take into account when thinking on this "near Wertheim" typical camouflage pattern. I perused all published Bf 109K-4 pictures available to me and found at least three operational machines with this same camouflage pattern:

"- Bf 109 K-4, W.Nr. unknown, "Black 1" of 10. /JG 51, Ronne stadium, 4th May 1945 (Poruba and Mol 2000, 70 - 73).
- Bf 109 K-4, W. Nr unknown, JG 52 (?), Ceske Budejovice, May 1945, (Poruba and Mol 2000, 63).
- Bf 109 K-4, W. Nr unknown "White 8", JG 52 (?), May 1945 (Poruba and Mol 2000, 46 - 47). This one is illustrated by stills of a colour fim shot by the US Army; the film can be seen on Youtube."

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Believe me or not but she really was an archeologist working on Carcassone area while I was reabilitating some antics as stone mason...
Yes Marc, Thank you.
Means the one I got looks exactly what it seems to be.
Regards,
Franck.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hey guys,

Marc, thank you very much for the further information on the "Goldfisch" underground facility. Really interesting facts you provide.
As well thanks for summing up what we got so far.

Carl, thank you for the facts and figures on that Bodenwöhr-Wertheim relation. They're really helpful to underline our theories.

I want to add another point which is still open. Namely the question where the picture ,showing the unfinished fuselages stacked on each other was taken. In post #30 Roland propose Vilseck as a probable location. Maybe we can prove that in a way. I think it's an really fascinating picture and it would be great if we could get some more background on it. But first things first:)
Wish you all a nice sunday!

Matthias

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi there, Matthias,

You're most welcome! As for the pile of unfinished fuselages discarded along a railway line, I can only hope that Roland might shed some more definitive light as to its precise location. Here for the sake of commodity within this thread this pic, originally uploaded on Flickr by WW2vet on 16 July 2009, with no location given.

And the direct Flickr link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4036184...38498/sizes/o/

When blown up, you will notice above and to the right of the fuselages in the foreground at least two files of railroad wagons, with quite a big building emerging beyond. Those are tell-tale signs for a railway station; maybe this clue will be enough to pinpoint the place, probably photographed between late November 1945 and March 1946 (look at the stark naked trees in the background..).

For developping our discussion, I also hope soemone will find and publish photos of the Bodenwöhr assembly line as found by US troops; those must surely exist, as they do for Flossenbürg or Augsburg....

In the meantime, have all the best possible...Monday morning;-))

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Gentlemen,

I´d like to add a map of the Vilseck-Heringnohe and Vilseck/railway complex with the landing strip upper left and the main railway tracks running north - south. The landing strip and the surroundings are not accessible: (US training ground Grafenwoehr)

http://www.geodaten.bayern.de/Bayern...ayer=TK&step=4

Here you see the airfield railway joining the main tracks:

http://www.geodaten.bayern.de/Bayern...yer=DOP&step=2

The tracks nowadays have been removed but the curved dam is still visible, ending in a huge dam used by the still existent main railway line Weiden-Nuremberg. The railway visible on the horizon of the flickr - photos runs on a dam, too. The building style looks a lot like the Upper Palatinate...

Not lying far from the tracks I think the fuselages had been hastily "emptied" from railway wagons including the damaged Bf109s and the Me 262. Those IMO were destined for a "Zerlegebetrieb" or being repaired

The DB 605 trolleys in Wertheim are not intended for use in the open but on assembly tracks. Schmoll shows photos of DB 605s on such trolleys running on a "Feldbahn" in "Waldwerk Gauting" (= Hagelstadt).

It does not seem improbable to me whole parts of the Bodenwöhr-Cham and Flossenbürg-Vilseck production including tools and machinery were brought to Wertheim for the final assembly there.

Regards

Roland

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hallo Roland,

Thanks to your maps, everything fits in perfectly! Taking a close look on the other two pictures taken at the same time and at the same place, we can exactly pinpoint the dumping place of the Bodenwöhr camouflage patterned fuselages.

Here is the link and pic for the partially dismantled Bf 109 K-4 W. Nr unknown, "< 5" IV./JG 53, taken next to the unfinished K-4 fuselage pile of the above picture:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4036184...7622070197999/

The second picture shows the wrecks of two Me 262's and in the background the front of the same Bf 109K-4 "<5" of IV./JG 53:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4036184...7622070197999/

Now please, note two elements:

- first the discarded wings of a Ju 88 G. Having this in your mind, check out the K-4 fuselages pile, and you will see on the left a lone Jumo 213 lying among them. This engine might stems from the same machine.

- The background is paramount here: the railroad main line on its dam is very obvious, it's direction given by the same two very long freight trains we see in the background of the piled-up Bodenwöhr Bf 109K-4 fuselages. They station on side tracks which still exist nowadays (see the "Bayernwiever" link just posted by Roland). Now, following the line of the railway dam above the upturned Ju 88 wing, we notice that the main railway line remains on a strait line, as indicated by the wagons disappearing in the distance whilst a railway embranchment, also set on an earthen dam, takes a wide curve to the left. Taking also in account the houses seen in the background, this exactly situates the aircraft dump in the meadows along the main Weiden - Nuremberg line, just after Vilseck, where the former embranchment to Heringnohe airfield left the main line.

With this photographic evidence, we can position the Bf 109 K-4 "<5" and the two Me 262 fuselages a bit further to the south then the Bodenwöhr Bf 109 K-4 fuselages, dumped a bit further north, as evidenced by the first of the three trees planted along the curved railway dam leading towards Heringnohe airfield, which shows in both pictures. Hooray!!

Roland, thanks again for your invaluable help in anchoring geographically this set of three pictures, a big asset in pinpointing the trail left by the Bodenwöhr K-4 fuselages!

And now,gents, let's hope some new photographic evidence might show up from the Cham municipal administration! And let's not forget the Flossenbürg camouflaged K-4 fuselages parked along this "location unknown" Holzrückerweg...

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hey Roland and Marc,

great work on analyzing those pics and comparing with those modern aerophotos.I think the analogies are really big enough, that we can see that scene as proven. So, I think we can close the next case:) great!

I hope I'll find some time to have a look on that archiv collection in Cham.
The office hours are a bit unfavorable, so unfortunately it won't go there withing the next weeks. - I'll keep you guys informed.

Regards
Matthias

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hallo Matthias and Marc,

as local resident one tends to emphasize evidence in favour of the local sites. So it´s good to have one´s assessments confirmed by some neutral Swiss "authorities".
Vilseck was my main contender for the site of this photos from the beginning. I´ve been on site several weeks ago (25km from where I live) but unfortunately only on bike - the only way to follow the traces of the airfield tracks, btw. Due to menacing rainfall I wasn´t able to take parallel pics. I want to catch up on that to get the final proof.

Until that, here´s an aerial view of Vilseck-Heringnohe airfield with the course of the former airfield railway visible just below. Somewhere in the area left of the curve the pile of the K-4s must have been placed in spring 1945.

http://home.arcor-online.de/alois.la...te/vilseck.htm

Regards

Roland

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hallo Matthias and Roland,

Without daring to talk of "neutral Swiss authorities", it's a real and extraordinary pleasure to pinpoint collectively locations of our recent Past. Teamwork is best!

As a lifelong biker, I do feel with you Roland;-)))

Back to the link you give us and the picture it contains, I would contend all depicted airframes were closer to where the secondary line meets the main railway line and thus beneath the lower edge of this picture; they must have been actually quite close to the road which travels on the lower left of your aerial picture.

Matthias, Roland, if I snatch a few days leave, I would love to pop over to your part of Bayern! Of course AFTER having checked with the opening hours of the Cham municipality!

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hallo Roland,

For the sake of completeness regarding your post #31, here is the link to the Flossenbürg assembly shop photo showing the front half of the already engine equipped Bf 109 K-4 fuselages:

http://www.flossenburg.be/historischefotob.html

And the same interior shot with a better resolution; just above an overview of the assembly barracks:

http://www.cjvma.org/e/albums/kleinmann/069-080.html

Caption: The Messrschmidt factory in Flossenbürg, and the interior of this factory where Peter worked assembling engines. (KFF Archives; Interior, courtesy Stanley S. Marcus)

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Thanks, Marc for these websites.

I already know those photographs, but the resolution of the Bf109K pic is excellent!

The photo of the assembly barracks is captioned wrongly concerning the assembly of wings or fuselages - they´re much too small at all. This assembly took place elsewhere. Maybe the pre-assembly of components took place in these barracks or the fabrication of Me 262 parts towards the final months. I haven´t found photos of the Nazi-era depicting Mtt assembly halls - seems to be the urge to keep it secret. Even on official KZ photos you can see some halls faintly in the background of one pic. Most photos come from the US - maybe they´re still filed as "Mtt Regensburg"

Another pic from the 50s-60s show a train passing Altenhammer. The gap left of the engine marks the site of the Mtt assembly hall already torn down at this time.

I´m quite sure the archives of EADS (successor of MBB and/or Mtt) contain photos of those secret production sites. IMO they´re not revealed because it would not be PC to draw any connections to a wartime production of the company based on slave labour. And the KZ Flossenbürg archives understandably are mostly interested in the suffering of the people and not in their products.

Regards

Roland

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Greetings from Wertheim
I live close to the former airfield Wertheim-Reinhardshof.
The former Luftwaffe depot can be accessed.
Do You know the former flak tower, called "Turm"?
May be I can do some research for You. There is the "Historischer Verein", I can ask them, can ask elder people, reaearch in archives.

By the way Wertheim Flugplatz was usually a subsidiary of Giebelstadt Flugplatz

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Wertheim was connected to Bavaria/Kreuzwertheim Würzburg via railroad via Lohr.
Schlossbergtunnel closed meant either stop at Kreuzwertheim and ca. 1km by road.
The road with the engines seems to be "Eichelsteige". The railroad was abandonned in 1976. The tunnel still exists.
Eichelsteige is very close to the tunnel´s entrance, ca. 50m .
as a child I was told that Messerschmitt airplanes had been built beside Eichelsteige.
The other two railroad connections, still existing is from the south, Stuttgart, also to Odenwald (Neckarelz area) and via Miltenberg beside the main river also to Odenwald via Amorbach.
Thus parts could have been delivered to the other tunnels´s entrance, if not via Kreuzwertheim.

There is one photographer having many pictures from Wertheim´s history.

There is Staatsarchiv in Kloster Bronnbach, part of Wertheim.

There are stories that a guy of Wertheim made a Stuka flight under the bridge
to the tunnels entrance.

Come to Wertheim and I organize a meeting.

Would be a pleasure

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

also very interesting, got to know today, there was ca.
10-max 15 km another Luftwaffe Airport. did not know.
Höpfingen, called Dornberg

this might also have been a reason to assemble airplanes in Wertheim


Dornberg: Einsatzhafen 1. Ordnung, Arbeitsplatz für Wertheim. Flugplatz nach 1945 aufgegeben, seitdem landwirtschaftliche Nutzung, nur noch wenige Spuren vorhanden: Ehemaliges Liegeplatzgebäude jetzt bäuerliches Anwesen (Ferienhof), einige Bunker (Mun- Depot) im nahegelegenen Wald. Landstraße nach Dornberg folgt dem Verlauf der ehemaligen Fliegerhorstringstraße. In letzter Zeit hat sich der Heimatverein Höpfingen um eine Aufarbeitung und Dokumentation der Geschichte des Platzes bemüht.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

there was a railroad from Walldürn to Hardheim, also a special railway from Walldürn to the now forgotten airport.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

www.schlemperthof.de

sie "Geschichte"
stunning description of Dornberg Airport, which was subsidiary of Giebelstadt and Wertheim Flufgplatz
Giebelstadt is located in Bavaria, closer to Messerschmitt.
The "chief" airport of Wertheim and of Wertheim´s smaller partner airfield Dornberg.
Aircraft parts were delivered from Bavaria and motors from Baden-Württemberg where Wertheim and Höpfingen are.
Dornberg was

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Dornberg was closer to the Western front than Wertheim.
Thus Eichelsteige assembly was a little more protected, additionally behind mountain

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

the railway providing the motors from Stuttgart runs nearly in South to North direction protected by the Tauber Valley.

http://web2.cylex.de/stadtplan/werth...helsteige.html

see the road cossing the river. it was a combined railway road bridge.
on the northern side of the river Kreuzwertheim Railway station.
Tunnel entrance is just at the South of the bridge, the assembly of Messerschmitts was at Eichelsteige, at least the motors were stored there

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hallo Fliegerhorst,

Thanks for all your fresh inputs. Your knowledge as an inhabitant of Wertheim is of course invaluable, and we all would greatly appreciate if you could find new documentation regarding the repair activities on Bf 109's carried out by Flugzeugwerke Mannheim “Flumann GmbH” since 1942 as pointed out by Carl (post #49).

The later stage Bf 109K-4's assembly activity along the "Eichelsteige" is of special interest as it illustrates the the flurry of makeshift solutions in order to keep front-line units provided with new airframes even under those extreme circumstances. Would it be possible to have some more nowadays pictures of all the places shown in the 1945 photos? That would be great!

Thanks again for your offer and looking forward for new informations. Especially new historical pictures would be highly cheered for as they more often disclose lots of new information elements.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Go on the Stadtplan/map to Northern side if the river .
there is "Im Gänsrein", new houses. there is still a tunnel 300m long parallel to Bahnhofstrasse. Kreuzwertheim railway station is eytremely outside the village itself.
A Unique area. Two railway tunnels in 300 m distance at both sides of the river. Ideal for protection.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hello Marc

yes , I will take some pictures.
in our wertheim history there is a lack of information about these days.
My parents arrived by train in 1946 as displaced persons from CSSR via Vienna. They were sent to the former Luftwaffe barracks at Wertheim Reinhardshof. A lot of damaged airplanes still being there. The people made pots for cooking of airplane material. Made pullovers of cable insulations etc.
I was reported that a company I worked for, recycled the airplanes, reused screws etc. .
There are still hangars.
One hangar was removed in 1948 from the hill where the airfield was located by contractor company Noell to Wertheim railway station, now used as storage room and fitness center.
I will take pics of all.
Here in the village Vockenrot, 1 km to the former airfield I know an old man who I can ask. And I know that one man here worked in aircraft repair.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi Fliegerhorst,

from me also many thanks for the new input. Your potential information sources have promise I guess. It would be great if you could check them by time. Like Marc said, pictures showing that places nowadays for example are very welcome. Many thanks for your offer!

Marc, are you still planning to visit bavaria? I think I can get a day off within the next weeks and could have a look on the documentation provided in Cham. I can give you some feedback on the quality of that library before you shoulder the long drive.

Greez

Matthias

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Servus Matthias,

Yes I still intend to do the trip to see the places. After all, there are only 759 kilometers from where I live to Cham ;-)))

Your feedback will be in any case highly appreciated!

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

whereas I am in an early stage of research I think of doing a summary of it.

The "Historische Verein" publishes "Jahrbücher" annual reports of each year since a long time.
I visit the "Historisches Museum" tomorrow, know the director.

I took many pics today.

I also will visit Fotoshop whose owner is the late seventies.
They own many old pictures.

Wertheim had 45 only a few , I think 2 important, industry companies.
One was "Herdfabrik" left side of Tauber, a foundry for ovens.
One was Präzisonstechnik, removed from bombed Aschaffenburg.
But in Hasloch there was a "Pulvermühle", producing ammunition.
Kurtz metal works.

Quite interesting, there is the "Turm" , an impressive concrete Tower,
which was a flak platform. In the fifties a brewery added one level and it became a cafe.
The last years it was known as a Night Club/Cabaret.
At the airport there was an anti aircraft gun, also on Hasselberg.
From Turm the flak could protect the air above Wertheim Castle.
Eichelsteige is behind that.

I could organize a visit in the flak tower, since I know the owner.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hallo Fliegerhorst,

yes, the small road where the DB 605s were stored is called "Eichelsteige" leading east from the northern mouth of "Schlossberg" tunnel. The eastern part is yet too steep to be used for storage purposes.
I´ve identified "Kaffelstein" tunnel as potential 2nd tunnel in post #19. One question, though, Fliegerhorst. The DB 605 trolleys - especially the iron wheels - look like they are meant for use on iron tracks and not on the bare ground. Was the railway bridge connecting Schlossberg and Kaffelstein tunnel damaged or destroyed during the final war months? This might explain the use of "Eichelsteige" for engine storage and the absence of assembly activity for Kaffelstein tunnel in March/April 1945. Before this, engine storage might have taken place there with the trolleys being pushed across the bridge for final assembly in "Schlossberg" tunnel.
Is or was there some kind of railway connection between Wertheim railroad and Wetheim airfield plateau? There´s always the possibility of truck transportation but Mtt e.g. preferred railway tracks when available.

Marc, go for "Mainschleife Urphar" east of Wertheim - might be of some archeological interest...

Regards

Roland

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hello Marc,

Absolutly! Go here http://www.opus-bayern.de/uni-wuerzb...xte/2006/1735/ before looking in live. ;). Start on Later Neolithic.
Cheers,
Franck.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Today it was a "great" day for me, since as "Wertheimer" I am a newbee
in this topic.

Let me explain.
Today I visited the owner of the photoshop. He is around 80+ .
And I asked him all the questions.
There are in deed only this two pictures available at present, since someone somewhen was able to make a copy. all the others would be taken to the USA by the US. I will research.

So, now the interesting aspects:
Kaffelstein tunnel was never used for storage, but Wertheim Schlossberg tunnel and the "Tauber Bahn" tunnel in Waldenhausen, ca. 3km from Wertheim. Wings and aircraft bodies were so thin that they did not
disturb trains using the tunnels. The kids played with aircraft parts these days after the war. Obviously aircraft parts were simply stored there.
He does not know about assemly in the woods. BUT, and now we are lucky, I know where Flumann was located. It was in Kreuzwertheim, Bavaria, the other side of the river. Nowadays there is a "Stuhlfabrik"
which is named Hofmann. I will research in our Bavarian neighbourhood.
We should not forget the wood aspect, Spessart is known for oak,
best quality of wood except "Buche". We know about replacement of
metal parts by wood as substitute.
There was never a railroad to Reinhardshof, impossible.
But Wertheim and Kreuzwertheim, two railway stations.
I will research whether Flumann was the beginning of the furniture company after WW2 or not. The photographer told me that the old buildings do not exist any more.
There shall also have been an "electronics" repair shop of Flumann
in these buildings. At the moment I only know about wing, body, electronics repair and body and wings storage.

I will get a copy of a bill, dated in November 44, where Flumann has to pay for pictures of 60 French POWs or workers, since they received
ID papers.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

the bridge between Wertheim and Kreuzwertheim was blown up
by us Germans the US being very close. thus a damaged bridge was
no influence on aircraft production.

Another aspect: At Walldürn there was a fake airport, wooden dummies.
A collegue told me about one also at "Steinfurt", he will ask his mother.
Aircraft dummies were an important factor, dunno who made them.

The photographer does not know about aircraft production beside Eichelsteige.
Flumann in Kreuzwertheim was fact, storage of bodies and wings in Schlossberg tunnel and tunnel in Waldenhausen, storage of motors
beside Eichelsteige.
2 Pictures are authentic Wertheim ones, the GI with wings at Schlossberg entrance and motors beside Eichelsteige.