Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Hi there gang,

The subject of the MTT delocalized assembly lines in the Vilseck, Cham-Michelsdorf area, north-east of Regensburg, has a new impetus over on LEMB, thanks to Matthias, who brings highly interesting new informations:
Among the treats, a great shot taken in December 1944 at Cham - Michelsdorf, showing a wingless BF 109 G-10 or K-4 parked outside a restaurant in the old town... Lovely!

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...61&#entry49861

Roland, any new facts about this topic? I'm still wondering about this Waldwerk said to be next to Wertheim... Matthias considers the Bodenwöhr Waldwerk as a more likely location for the Mtt Bf 109 K-4 production line. Thanks to him for those inputs.

Cheers
Marc

[RolandF]

Hi Marc,
yes, I have read this topic and I´ve tried to get more information. Of corse I know the Bodenwöhr-Cham Mtt production line because it is a parallel to the Flossenbürg-Vilseck Production line. But only connected by production sites for the minor accessoires. In both cases the backbone is the railway net of the Reichsbahn, until the birds have been airworthy. After that the distribution was rather easy.
The photograph of the Bf109 being pulled from Michelsdorf through the centre of Cham to Cham freight yard is very interesting, but if I´d show you the tranport route of the wingless Bf109 fuselages from KZ Flossenbürg production site to Flossenbürg railway station you´d certainly regard this as more than adventurous and it shows the difficulties Mtt had to cope with for the sake of concealment.
And - the designations of the production sites are misleading. For secrecy purposes, I presume. The records name the next larger town - little settlements with a railway station in most cases.
Mtt Flossenbürg is KZ Flossenbürg
Mtt Flossenbürg is Altenhammer
Mtt Vilseck is Heringnohe
Mtt Bodenwöhr is Mappach
Mtt Cham is Michelsdorf
and so on, so it is difficult to keep track. I am sure there are no files in the respective town administrations, at least none about technical details and production. If not in hands of EADS most material might be in US hands.
I tried to get plans of Heringnohe airfield but to no avail. At least I discovered the corpus of the secondary railway track leading from Vilseck to Heringnohe airfield. The site itself nowadays is part of US Grafenwöhr training ground and thus not accessible. Even the ultra-light gliders weren´t allowed to land there after 9/11.
Concerning the Wertheim caption I haven´t found mentioned this site in any publication. Even the list of reparation sites in Germany lists it, though tiniest sites like Pfreimd and Neustadt are mentioned. But that´s no proof because Vilseck and Cham are missing...

http://www.digitalis.uni-koeln.de/Re...chelt35-47.pdf

Other lists are including the above-mentioned sites - but not "Wertheim":

http://images.library.wisc.edu/Histo...sdam.i0012.pdf

To be honest, any of the before-mentioned sites except from KZ Flossenbürg might be "Wertheim". Dense pine woods were the reason for Mtt to disperse their production into the Northern Bavarian forests.

Regards

Roland

[masmar]

Hi Roland,
thanks a lot for that input! You are very right, that every location theoretical could be "Wertheim", but I think we could do a cutback of options. Both Waldwerke near Regensburg, Gauting and Stauffen produced the Me 262 to the end of war, so I think they're out. The only left, produced complete fuselages are Bodenwöhr and Flossenbürg and Cham and Vilseck as recievers of the fuselages. So I think those four are the only candidates left. Especially the following picture some time ago catched my attention. It looks like this fuselages are standing deeper in a forrest than just on the edge, like it could have been in Cham, since there are only small wooded areas. Roland do you have any pictures (old of new) or maps of any of those sites you could share? Or would you point out the locations on Google earth (Vilseck and Flossenbürg). Did Flossenbürg production took place in the forrest near Altenhammer? I would be greatfull for and further information.
You are right, no chance to find anything in the respective town administrations
If I'll find some time on the weekend I'll visit the Bodenwöhr site and take some pictures of the former Mtt. areal. I could share them here if you're interested.
With regards

Matthias

[RolandF]

Servus, Matthias,
"Wertheim" can be defined, I think. You´re sure Hagelstadt was out of Bf109 production in April 1945? Then we can sort it out. But it would fit into the picture. The fuselages are stored on a "Holzrückeweg" which obviously has not been used for lumbering purposes for a couple of years. This implies a rather large piece of forest which would exclude Michelshofen with its tiny piece of forest. In KZ Flossenbürg there exist no Holzrückewege for obvious reasons and Altenhammer is hidden deep in the valley with no direct connection to a plain forest area.
Weissenohe might fit and Mappach looks good, too.
Here are the Google coordinates for:
the two KZ Flossenbürg production sites
49.73813,12.353944
49.73811,12.348171
Altenhammer
49.730558,12.325287
Heringnohe
49.62906,11.783609 - I have marked the traces of the airfield railway. Zooming is deliberately blocked by the US because of the military facilities. If you´re wanting a better resolution and excellent maps, go here and look for "Sorghof" or "Heringnohe":
http://www.geodaten.bayern.de/BayernViewer/index.cgi

Flossenbürg and Altenhammer production did not take place in the forests but almost in the open. Whereas Altenhammer production hall was well hidden in a deep and narrow valley you can figure out why the Nazis dared to produce openly within the KZ area...

Concerning Mappach it would be interesting to know whether there was some kind of transport railway to the station such as the one between "Stauffen" and Obertraubling.

The distance between Michelsdorf and Cham railway station is huge IMO. Most interesting is the possibility that the Messerschmitts might have been tugged across the Regen bridge which later was filming site for Bernhard Wickis "Die Brücke"...

I´m looking forward to your pics. Btw, did you have contact with Peter Schmoll? He seems to be well-informed about Mtt production in the direct surroundings of Regensburg, but stays rather calm concerning the "outer rim" of the Mtt web.

Regards

Roland

[Me 109 K-4]

Hi Matthias,

What makes you so sure about Gauting?
This Waldwerk did only produce parts of the Me 262.
Main production was the Bf 109 till the end of the war.
Also the Bf 109 K-4 was produced there. By night the completed airplanes were towed with their tail on a truck and without wings to the airfield of Obertraubling via the Reichsstraße 15 (now B15).
Here the wings were attached and the acceptance flights were made.
Stauffen did produce the Me 262, which was also transported to Obertraubling via a small railway track along the Autobahn. Acceptance flights were conducted at Obertraubling.
I think it's not that easy to rule Gauting out as a possible location for these pictures.

Ciao,
Matthias
(same Name, but another one)

[RolandF]

Servus, Matthias(the other one),

that´s what I recall from memory - so Hagelstadt (code name "Gauting")stays as one of the contenders. The method of transport is the same as in Flossenbürg - but with the truck as braking agent. The transport route is awfully steep - about 150 meters height within a distance of 1800 meters to the railway station. Here the completed fuselages were loaded on stake cars and ferried to Vilseck-Heringnohe, where the wings were attached. Acceptance flights were made at Amberg-Schafhof, Mtt test pilots ferrying the Bf109s from Vilseck to Schafhof. Same goes with Michelsdorf.

Regards

Roland

[masmar]

Hi all,
thank you Roland for the Coordinates and ähm yes , "servus"
Very good analysis of the terrain at this spots.
Matthias (the other one) is completely right. It was my mistake, Gauting also produced K4 types in the 330105-330491 Werknummern Block. Twisted it with Stauffen. From 331323-335210 Cham is named as supplier. Seems that Gauting was more specialized on G-6 and G-14/AS types to the end of war. But I can only rever to the book of Peter Schmoll "Die Messerschmitt-Werk im zweiten Weltkrieg". Please disabuse if I am wrong.
So I think Gauting is still in in that case. Had someone ever been to Gauting and checked the look nowadays?
In Bodenwöhr the finished fuselages where brought to the narrow train station here: ( 49°15'52.39"N / 12°22'47.00"O )by trucks. Resilent bridges up to 10 tons can still be found in that forrest.
Roland you are right, Peter Schmoll would be the right man on this topic, but I'm as well not in contact with him. He did research in the U.S. archives for over two years. I guess he's way better informed than we are .
I think I'll be in Bodenwöhr this weekend, than I'll post some pictures.
Found that Bodenwöhr also delivered spare-parts for Me 262 :
http://www.ww2f.com/wwii-today/10997-me-262-a.html look on post #21
There was also a HP i have seen already in the past, but it seems down at the moment. But that's just a minor matter.
I post a picture of a strange armor plate I found in Bodenwöhr. Never seen something similar to this. I know, it's not the right threat, but perhaps you have any idea. But that's also minor matter
That's it for today


Greez
Matthias

[Me 109 K-4]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for bringing up the topic of the Waldwerke round Regensburg, because it is one of my main interests.
I have been to Gauting several times. You can find "slight traces" of the Waldwerk, if you know where to look.
There are some stones of the basis of the wing assembly hall visible and some walls (about 30cm high) of a small building, presumably the guard house, are left.
I once met an old man there, who told me where they put out the tracks of the small railway line of the factory in the 1950's.

Regarding the Amberg acceptance flights - here is an interesting page:

http://www.flugplatz-amberg-schafhof.de/

Bye,
Matthias (the other one :-))

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Roland, Matthias and Mathias the other,

It's a real treat to read your posts: put together, your knowledge gives back some fascinating flesh on those evanescent Waldwerke. I can see and follow your conclusions and interrogations about one place being more probable then another for the "Wertheim" alias Gaunting or Bodenwöhr Waldwerke and this is most interesting.

By following up this rich thread, my main concern remains to tie down geographically the hard evidence given by the US photographs taken in 1945 somewhere "near Wertheim".

With this caption given as certain, I can tie down the following published imagery:

Noro, H. (2009), LO+ST, Dainippon Kaiga:
- p. 100 - 101, pictures 135 and 136: , showing wingless and engineless Bf 109 K-4's stacked along a "Holzrückeweg" in a huge forest "near Wertheim"
- p. 102, picture 137: a railroad tunnel with tracks which portal has been fitted with wooden doors, and with both a pair of Bf 109 wings stacked againt the outer side walls and a third pair lying on the tracks "near Wertheim"

Poruba, T. and Mol, K. (2000): Messerschmitt Bf 109K, camouflage and markings, JaPo:
- p 40: "unfinisehd Bf 109K-4s captured at Wertheim". This is exactly the one and same scene then pics #135 - #136 published by Hideki Noro: engineless and wingless Bf 109 K-4's stacked on both sides of an "Holzrückeweg", most probably taken at about the same period of the year: the fully dressed GI's and the amount of dead leaves on the soil makes one think those shots were taken in early spring or late autumn 1945.

There ends published pictures with "near Wertheim" captions, and thus, our certitudes. There is one unique aspect to be seen on all airframes, pointed out by Tomas Poruba and Kees Mol as a very specific camouflage scheme: bottom of the fuselages was left unpainted, and only a thick looking wavy line of sprayed RLM 76 is to be found on the lower fuselage, cutting off the RLM 81/83 segment and mottle scheme. This is especially shown to its advantage on picture 136 (Noro 2009, 101).


Now, let's look at the possibly connected pictures - based on this odd camouflage with a wavy RLM 76 line cutting off the dark segments and mottles on the lower fuselage and metal bare bottom fuselage:

A. Hideki Noro publishes a dump of Bf 109K-4's fuselages "location unknown" (Noro 2009, 104, pic #139). They do show the same wavy RLM 76 line cutting off the dark segments and mottles on the lower fuselage and metal bare bottom fuselage.
B. This pic ties up with another one published by WW2vet on Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/4036184...38498/sizes/o/. This picture discussed already here on the board http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=17708 does show exactly the same wavy RLM 76 line, a feature noticed by both SMF144 and Ouidjat in the discussion thread.

Both those pics do with a high degree of probability show the same fuselage dump in a time setting which must be winter 1945 - 1946, judging by the bare trees and the coldweather gear and gloves of the US personnel standing among the fuselages on pic #139 (Noro 2009, 104).

This ends both the published and unpublished photographical evidence so far... Taking it now to a bit wider circle, I can mention also picture # 138 (Noro 2009, 103) showing at least 8 wingless Bf 109K-4's sitting on an "Holzrückeweg". As they are taken from above, one cannot see the specific camo pattern with the RLM 76 wavy line and the bare metal fuselage bottom. No clear common link thus, but interesting to bear in mind when one thinks of the Waldwerke photographs.

One last point to take into account when thinking on this "near Wertheim" typical camouflage pattern. I perused all published Bf 109K-4 pictures available to me and found at least three operational machines with this same camouflage pattern:

- Bf 109 K-4, W.Nr. unknown, "Black 1" of 10. /JG 51, Ronne stadium, 4th May 1945 (Poruba and Mol 2000, 70 - 73).
- Bf 109 K-4, W. Nr unknown, JG 52 (?), Ceske Budejovice, May 1945, (Poruba and Mol 2000, 63).
- Bf 109 K-4, W. Nr unknown "White 8", JG 52 (?), May 1945 (Poruba and Mol 2000, 46 - 47). This one is illustrated by stills of a colour fim shot by the US Army; the film can be seen on Youtube.


As you see, gang, the "near Wertheim" caption is a real treat for further research...

Cheers
Marc

[RolandF]

The tunnel makes me wonder - unfortunately I don´t own LO+ST.

Maybe a tunnel just like that?:

http://www.eisenbahn-tunnelportale.d...tale/5213.html