Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Hi Craig

I will check the Amerk numbers for Sterr's units, and there is a secondary microfilm listing only date and time, I'll check this to see if any additional claims. But it will be the same for all the pilots with his staffel, if their's all match so should Sterr's. Years ago I checked a claim for Günther Rall against this Date/time microfilm as it was missing from the main daily microfilm entries, and found three claims missing from this main mikrfilm, one of which matched Rall;s claim.

With Walter Schuck his 206 total is based only on Hermann Goring telling Schuck that an additional twenty-five of his previously unconfirmed claims have now been confirmed, personally I find this unbelievable, all twenty-five confirmed in one go

Franz Woichich is attributed with 110 victories, yet his own abschüße list has only eighty-two.

Regards

Johannes

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Hello Gentlemen,

thanks for your posts.
Personally, I consider the figures of Johannes most valid.
But I'm also very interested in how the "traditional" victory scores of the German WW2 originated.

Have a nice Tuesday,

Michael

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Thanks Michael

I could find no irregular amerk numbering i.e nothing appears to be missing for 6./JG 54.

With Werner Schroer the KBT papers during 1945 give his total as 114, yet the mikrofilms have several missing when they should be there, these are also marked as unconfirmed on his staffels abschusse board. Perhaps Sterr had six unconfirmed claims in addition to his 102 regarding previous e.mails.

Regards

Johannes

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Good afternoon Johannes,

what we need is something like a newspaper article announcing Sterr's death.
This should feature what they supposed Sterr's final total to be.

Have a nice weekend,

Miichael

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Good morning,

was Günther Josten flying a Bf 109 or an Fw 190 in the first week of April 1945 ?

Michael

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Happily there are extensive onlline archives of wartime newspapers from Germany and Austria for you to explore. Here are two:

http://anno.onb.ac.at

http://zefys.staatsbibliothek-berlin...x.php?id=start

Do let us know what you find.

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Good morning,

in OSPREY's "Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Aces of the Russian Front" p96 there is a Fw 190 Eastern Front Order of Battle for 1 April 1945 (Post-Bodenplatte built-up) that does not indicate IV/JG51 as a Fw190 unit. Does that mean that that Gruppe was still using Bf109's on that date ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Good afternoon Gentlemen,

did Fritz Tegtmeier score his last (#146) kill in I./JG54 ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Hi Michael

I loose track of Tegtmeier 30th October 1944 when he made his 139th confirmed claim, however he was Staffelkapitän of 3./JG 54 until March 1945 when to joined JG 7, his claimed total of 146 Russian aircraft is likely to be true judging by what claims are known, I would therefore suggest he made seven further claims beyond the scope of the mikrofilms i.e very late 1944 or earlier 1945...….the winter of 1944/1945 to be exact.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Good evening Johannes,

would you agree that he scored 23 Bf109 kills and 123 Fw190 kills ?

Kind regards,

Michael

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Good morning Gentlemen,

the Fw190 is considered better than the Bf109 but it never could fully replace it.
What's the main advantage of the Fw190 compared to the Bf109 ?
What's the main advantage of the Bf109 compared to the Fw190 ?

Cheers,

Mcihael

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Easier to fly (including take-off & landing). More durable. Somewhat better armement (including bombing capabilities and more firing time). Better roll rate.

Easier to build (cheaper), mostly use B4 fuel. Better rate of climb and better performance over about 6,000 m. Better turn radius.

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Good morning Alfred,

thanks for your answer.
I heard that the Bf109 could be assembled by non-professional workers. This might have contributed significantly to its success. The basic concept seems to have been so sound that the plane could be improved again and again over a period of 8 long years.
I did not know that the Bf109 had a better turning radius than the Fw190.
I have a German book featuring a graphic that suggest that the Fw190 was so manoeuvrable in a dive that it easily could shake of a pursuer.

Would you have preferred to serve in an Fw190 unit if given the choice between the two ?

Have a nice Wednesday,

Michael

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

All German combat aircraft were assembled to some extent by "non-professional workers" in the shape of foreign forced labour and enslaved prisoners.

The Bf 109 began life with the same 2 x MG armament as a 1916-vintage fighter (admittedly with a better rate of fire) at a time when the RAF was seeing a need for four times as many guns. From the F-series onwards it had trouble matching the firepower of its US and British contemporaries. Look at how the Fw 190's armament increased from the A-1 to the A-8 for example; a Spitfire V had 2 x 20 mm and 4 x MG, double what the 109 F carried.

Also, there never was a Bf 109 with a sliding canopy, let alone a "teardrop" hood giving all-round vision such as the Spitfire, Typhoon, P-47 and P-51 all acquired. The Fw 190 had very good all-round vision from the start, of course.

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Should have it, that's another question (that also valable for the Spitfire).

The Bf 109 was also maneuvrable in dive, but like the Mustang, it should not be put under to much G. So the Bf 109 and Fw 190 can shake P-47 and P-38 in dive but a certain speed should be reached and timing was critical.

Despite the few advantages of the Bf 109 over the Fw 190, except the pilots who know the Bf 109 like the back of their hand for flying it for a long time, most pilot would chose the Fw 190, particulary rookie ones.

But fact is pilot didn't have choice and it's likely that if the production had fully switched to the Fw 190 (something unthinkable knowing the power of Messerschmitt lobbying), they wouldn't have been able to cope with the losses and continue to create that much new Jagdgruppe.

Yes the Spitfire V have twice more firepower but the Bf 109 F-4 would fire its 20 mm cannon for three more time (200 rounds vs 60x2 rounds) and its machine guns one third more time (500x2 rounds vs 350x4 rounds). And also engine mounted weapons tends to be much more accurate, a fact that should not be downgraded.

However the situation was different with later variants, the Bf 109 losing performances to cope with Spitfire's level of firepower, despite better ammo and comparable cannons and machine guns.

Yes that's a much important advantage in favor of the Fw 190 I forgot.

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

A fair point but is longer firing time better than the ability to deliver a heavier weight of fire quickly, given that much aerial combat was a matter of split-second opportunities? I agree that better accuracy does help because what matters is how many bullets hit the target, not how many you fire.

I think if we are looking at development potential then Fw 190 (Fw 190 A – Fw 190 D – Ta 152 H) showed more than the Bf 109. And the same is true of the Spitfire (Mk I – Mk XIV) and P-51 (A – K) for example.

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

The P-51K was a P-51D but built at a different plant. I am sure you meant to say P-51H.

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Either that or I was just going for the highest letter!

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Hi Michael

As I understand it the Fw190 was an easier aircraft to fly(wherefore good for inexperienced pilots), was much better armed, better vision, better undercarriage and better armoured, for these reasons a better ground-attack aircraft, also better at lower altitudes, also a slightly more spacious cockpit.
The Bf109 was a better turner, and better at high altitude.
Certain pilots preferred different types, perhaps it reality Fw190's against bombers and Bf109's against fighters, Anton Hackl always tried to keep both types handy for this reason.
I sat in a Bf109 once, well got most of myself into it, the cockpits are tiny.
I think also the Bf109 was a better climber, and good at diving, but the Fw190 had the edge in a dive?

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

See top aerobatic pilot (and ex-Lufthansa capitain) Walter Eichhorn's account of flying the Manching Bf 109 in Schmoll's 'Me 109 - Production und Einsatz' - takeoffs and landings still terrify him!.." the experience only becomes a pleasure once the wheels are off the ground.." and on landing "..you see airshow pilots waving at the crowd as they come into land - not me, I need three hands in cockpit!"

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Late model Fw190As were ~1000kg heavier than late model Bf109s. The wing loading was lower on the Bf109. There was also the /AS version of the Bf109 which had a larger supercharger. The DB engine in the Bf109 had a higher FTH than the BMW801 engine in the Fw190A.

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Good afternoon,

currently, I'm enjoying working though Robert Forsyth's "Fw190 Sturmböcke vs B-17 Flying Fortress".

By the way, is it possible to tell when each Staffel of JG54 transitioned from Bf109 to Fw190, respectively ?

Michael

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

What was the main advantage (and the main disadvantage) of the Fw 190 over the Bf 109 ?

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Who were the top scorers (most aerial kills) of the Fw 190F and Fw 190G, respectively ?

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

The Pluses (working from anecdotal evidence): better firepower; better cockpit visibility; more resistance to battle damage due to ruggeder design and that radial engine;


The Minuses: poor high altitude performance; poorer maneuverability

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Good afternoon NickM,

would you think the Bf109 could fly tighter turns than the Fw190 ?

Have a good start into the weekend,

Michael

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Can anybody tell me on which dates
1./JG54
2./JG54
3./JG54
started flying missions in the Fw190, respectively ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Hello Michael,

according to Jagdfliegerverbände Vol. 9/III the 1./JG 54 and 3./JG 54 flew the first missions in the Fw 190 A-4 on 29 Dec 1942, the 3./JG 54 followed on 6 Jan 1943.
The first losses of the Staffeln:
1./JG 54 25 Jan 43 WNr. 5772 crashlanding, 15% damage
2./JG 54 06 Jan 43 WNr. 2464 belly landing, 20% damage
3./JG 54 15 Jan 43 WNr. 2309 belly landing, 10% damage.

Regards
Leo

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Good evening Leo,

thanks for your useful answer.
May it be that there's a typo in your text because you mentioned 3./JG54 twice ?

Have a good Thursday,

Michael

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Hello Michael,

yes I made a typo. The 6 Jan 1943 was the first mission day of the 2./JG 54 with Fw 190.

Regards
Leo

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Hi Michael

The Mustang appears on the KBT papers. These papers give the number of claim, if high 30+ and this Mustang is numbered 103. Don't know where 116 comes from, but probably Ernst Obermaier, he is likely to have got it from Hans Ring. Hans Ring liked to play games, games in which by giving false information he could tell in publications that the source was himself. I have also seen 127 mentioned for Lambert. Lambert was not liked by his superior for some reason, could be a number of things, French surname, over-claiming, being dark haired, who can say. Perhaps Lambert had enough unconfirmed claims to make 116 or 127?

Lambert usually flew with a very high scoring schwarm(like the Nowotny schwarm or Emil Lang schwarm of over-claimers), who stayed behind the rest of the unit to cover their retreat/flight home. This would give them the opportunity to over-claim, but this has not been proven one way or another. His superior I believe stopped him being awarded the eichenlaub. Hopefully the Russian losses experts can calculate the truth from the known claims, which are incomplete.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Good evening Leo,

thanks for the dates. Now I know that some high scorers have fewer Fw190 kills than I thought.

Good evening Johannes,

to prove that something has NOT happened is always difficult. It's interesting that you know not only the airwar history but also the airwar historians' history. That might be the key for the rectification of false scores. Galland and Marseille had dark hair and French names, too. The former was well liked by Hitler, the latter was well liked by Rommel.

I wish you a good weekend, sincerely,

Michael

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

According to John Weal (2001) Heinrich Sterr reportedly achieved his 100. kill in October 1943. When exactly ?

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Hi Michael

Sterr scored his first eighty-seven confirmed claims with 6./JG 54 from 6th April 1942 until 28th January 1944. Then 88-96 with 4./JG 54 from 19th March 1944 until 2nd April 1944. He then returns to 6./JG 54 where 97-105 were 8th April 1944 until 21st July 1944(nr.100 on 1st May 1944. Then he transfers to 16./Jg54 where he claims his 106-108 from 12th August 1944 until 25th September 1944, the last two being U.S aircraft.

So his total is 108, of which two were in the West

Don't know why a total of 129 or 130 is attributed to him, but I found one unconfirmed for 7th March 1943, between confirmed numbers 24-25. So there are likely to have been other unconfirmed.

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S

The actual highest honest claimer with the Fw190 is Otto Kittel, with the Bf109 Barkhorn and Rall. With Barkhorn at least 228 of his claims actually crashed, but the last eighteen claims attributed to him would in my opinion be false information, in fact four claims must be wrong(proven by documentation). Actually a Russian losses expert stated that Barkhorn overclaimed as he neared "300", this makes perfect sense as the claims closing to 300 are false information..
Have helped Daniel & Gabor Horvath with Barkhorn's abschüßelist with there new publication "Verified VICTORIES Top JG52 aces over Hungary 1944-45" Basically it compares the claims of Hartmann, Barkhorn, Batz, Düttmann, Ewald, Lipfert, Sturm and Haas against Russian losses. These are all Bf109 only pilots. Book is unbiased, drawing on the facts, which led to conclusions about these Great aces honesty

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Good morning Johannes,

John Weal's books are a suitable platform to present Luftwaffe knowledge to non-professionals like me because the are graphically appealing and written in a pleasing narrative style. But often I wish I could ask him where a specific info comes from. He is known to speak German fluently and has a enormous collection of books. Do you happen to know him personally ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Hi Michael

I do not know John. You say he has a vast library of books, but books can be wrong, yet must be correct as published.
A lot of earlier works were based on information by Hans Ring, but as stated before he deliberately handed out false information. Somebody independent from myself said he did this so he knew the source was himself, possibly he'd asked that it not be used in publications. He would just as false information to correct information i.e Woidich and his "110" , which had been accepted as his true total for more than fifty years, but eighty-two is what Woidich himself listed, eighty-one(not the one for 1945) is what is listed on the mikrofilms, Hans Ring merely added another twenty-eight for July 1944, which were actually suspicious as they were completely not in the usual pattern of his claiming i.e they were all multiple claims per day, Woidich was never one for that.
I think that Ernst Obermaier's two Ritterkreuz publications may well have been influenced by Ring, the first from the sixties often had little more than a total, often in the eighties publication there is more information, and often significant corrections. This is all pre-mikrofilm days, but I suspect Obermaier contacted the pilots, and collected flugbücher/abschüßelist.

I think also that Ring had much original documentation, so nobody could really question it.

I'll ask my friend the JG52 meister Bernd Barbas if he was ever in contact with Obermaier, or John Weal.

I found the Franz Kurowski books had material that just isn't true, and it's hard to see where anybody would find such information. Also the Toliver/Constable Hartmann book, in this instance I should think they were probably mislead by Hartmann himself, not just the actual claim dates, Hartmann's flugbuch being stolen, so they can be forgiven for that, but the stories like shooting down four Il-2's with one burst, and oh the Mustangs.......or lack of them !

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Walter Nowotny did achieve “Ace or Expert” status on paper. He probably did get enough kills to actually make that distinguish but no were near the score that he claimed. He lied about many of his claims in Russia from the ones that I could check against Soviet documents. I was actually stunned that one of his claims in the Kursk air battle was actually verified by the recovery of the Soviet fighter (in the past years), it was in the actual location and time that he claimed. Nick Hector and myself looked at his claims flying the Me 262 that he was confirmed and no actual losses were found.

Otto Kittel would probably be the true top Fw 190 ace.

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

You're right. Unlike you he seems to have relied mostly on secondary sources. I wonder why he did not contact you after Luftwaffe Aces — Biographies and Victory Claims. Maybe he doesn't want to face the task of revising his OSPREY volumes ?

Sometimes the definition of an official total in dispute is as simple as the Helmut Lent total 110 vs 111 kills. His contemporary newspaper orbituary reveals the official number. I hope for something similar in the Heinrich Sterr case.

Have a good start into the weekend,

Michael

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Hi

With Nowotny yes, no doubt he did shoot down a large number of Russian aircraft. Usually even a devoted "over-claimer" began honest, or should we say was unable to "over-claim", then suddenly they make huge numbers of claims over a short period, then as I guess because circumstances have changed, they revert to not "over-claiming", but the Russian losses experts investigations suggest in this case that Nowotny was bad from the start.
Am surprised that his Me262 claim cannot be verified, as a change in circumstances had happened, but I suspect also that Kommandeur might have somehow self signed-off claims.

He could naturally have returned multiple claims without actually being in combat with his Austrian schwarm, or get one claim five, but there must have been times when he flew with strangers and made honest claims. Berhaps in this case it was a way for the Austrians to get back at their "unifiers" ?

I can explain Nowotny's "over-claiming" as mutual, until he become kommandeur of I./JG54, he like I say it's as if he gets them verified some other way !

Keep Well

Johannes

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Johannes, I looked at Nowotny’s claims from the very beginning and his first 10 claims could not even come close to verified. I sent Robinoc a lot of my research for his site jg54greenhearts.com. I had compiled some work on JG 54 for Operation Barbarossa from 22 June - 31 December 1941 but just not enough to fully complete it. The Russian aviation historian Mikhail Timin has compiled far more then I could get ahold of but I don’t know if that will come to light now. What I sent to Robinoc is about 69 pages, which will probably be a while to put up. I found out from Mikhail Timin that there are some German pilot reports that did survive and are in TsAMO. But Nowotny definitely learned to play the conman in the Nazi system for his advancement. Tegtmeier and Kittel were very decent pilots.